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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Oct 5, 2023 15:01:42 GMT
This time it's Harold who wins, not Harald.
What if Harold defeated and killed William the Bastard?
Of course one of the consequences os that English would remain a predominantly Germanic language in vocabulary. England also would not be dragged into continental wars.
What happens to France? Doed it unify earlier given lack of Dukes of Normandy/kings of England constantly waging wars against France?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2023 16:10:29 GMT
This time it's Harold who wins, not Harald. What if Harold defeated and killed William the Bastard? Of course one of the consequences os that English would remain a predominantly Germanic language in vocabulary. England also would not be dragged into continental wars. What happens to France? Doed it unify earlier given lack of Dukes of Normandy/kings of England constantly waging wars against France?
Definitely the English language remains more Germanic. Further foreign attacks are unlikely as with both Norway and Normandy bloodied and the Danes probably looking for revenge on Norway. Could be some internal problems depending on whether Harold seems weakened by battle losses or strengthen by two dramatic victories. The two northern lords who rule Mercia and Northumbria and are brothers are the most likely internal threat and the Scots king could be a problem but that would be mainly for Morcar the earl of Northumbria. The Welsh are probably likely to be quiet given Harold's campaign against them a few years before which stopped their raiding and overthrew their king.
Sooner or later England is likely to be drawn into continental politics to a greater degree and it could be towards France or the Low Counties given their geographic proximity rather than Scandinavia or N Germany but that could be generations ahead. Also its unlikely the English monarch would be that interested in Ireland unless some problem there caused a threat. The most likely areas of conflict could be with Scotland or Wales if a later Harold or future king gets expansionist or faces new attacks.
A lot could happen in France with Normandy weakened or possibly largely removed from place indefinitely. William OTL faced a lot of opposition in Normandy before he was able to gain control and his oldest son Robert, born between 1051 and 1054 would be at most 15 years old so, especially since a heavy defeat would reduce both the dynasty's prestige and see many of its supporters killed could see a new wave of unrest. Maine which William had conquered could rebel and a lot might depend on whether other rulers or even the French monarchy intervened.
However the key issue would be does another duchy emerge as a rival to centralisation under a powerful monarch. Probably at least one would try but not sure about their relative strengths at this point. How successful they would be in challenging the monarch would depend on the circumstances. Such a power would lack the resources England gave the Normans and Plantagenet's but also wouldn't be increasingly associated with an external nation which could make it harder for such a rival to be presented as a foreign threat.
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 5, 2023 16:41:29 GMT
If Harold is able to finish off Harald Hardrade and William Sven Estridsen would rather look to Norway as would his sons I assume as the Danish King thought of Norway or at least the Oslo - East Fold as his. With Church backing as he had secured at this time he might have a go.
Got to think about the Church - William had gotten a Papal Banner and been defeated. Guess the Pope will have to very forthcoming towards the Normans when they show up - if they do which ITTL may not be a given depending on how things develop in France/Normandy.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2023 22:56:35 GMT
If Harold is able to finish off Harald Hardrade and William Sven Estridsen would rather look to Norway as would his sons I assume as the Danish King thought of Norway or at least the Oslo - East Fold as his. With Church backing as he had secured at this time he might have a go. Got to think about the Church - William had gotten a Papal Banner and been defeated. Guess the Pope will have to very forthcoming towards the Normans when they show up - if they do which ITTL may not be a given depending on how things develop in France/Normandy.
I think given Harold's success and the wealth and importance to the church of England the Papacy might have to consider its position on the issue. There were questions over some English bishops but the country was known for its loyalty to the church and Harold had himself avoided scandal by being coronation by the archbishop og York rather than of Canterbury, who was the leading figure there was controversy over for holding two posts at the same time.
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 6, 2023 10:35:05 GMT
If Harold is able to finish off Harald Hardrade and William Sven Estridsen would rather look to Norway as would his sons I assume as the Danish King thought of Norway or at least the Oslo - East Fold as his. With Church backing as he had secured at this time he might have a go. Got to think about the Church - William had gotten a Papal Banner and been defeated. Guess the Pope will have to very forthcoming towards the Normans when they show up - if they do which ITTL may not be a given depending on how things develop in France/Normandy.
I think given Harold's success and the wealth and importance to the church of England the Papacy might have to consider its position on the issue. There were questions over some English bishops but the country was known for its loyalty to the church and Harold had himself avoided scandal by being coronation by the archbishop og York rather than of Canterbury, who was the leading figure there was controversy over for holding two posts at the same time.
I was actually thinking in more Church policy terms - i.e. the Pope had actually condoned a Crusade against the British - now the British won for themselves as You point to (and which I didn't thing of) rubbing that in the face of the Holy Mother Church but also to the other rulers of Christiandom - what is this Pope using the Faithful to his own schemes. Hence my remark on how for the Normans - if they show up in South Italy - to deal with the Pope.
The Church was trying in this day and age to limit bloodshed between Christians so it isn't really the time to use Christians on Christians by the Pope!
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 6, 2023 14:47:03 GMT
I think given Harold's success and the wealth and importance to the church of England the Papacy might have to consider its position on the issue. There were questions over some English bishops but the country was known for its loyalty to the church and Harold had himself avoided scandal by being coronation by the archbishop og York rather than of Canterbury, who was the leading figure there was controversy over for holding two posts at the same time.
I was actually thinking in more Church policy terms - i.e. the Pope had actually condoned a Crusade against the British - now the British won for themselves as You point to (and which I didn't thing of) rubbing that in the face of the Holy Mother Church but also to the other rulers of Christiandom - what is this Pope using the Faithful to his own schemes. Hence my remark on how for the Normans - if they show up in South Italy - to deal with the Pope.
The Church was trying in this day and age to limit bloodshed between Christians so it isn't really the time to use Christians on Christians by the Pope!
Well although there had been clashes before between Christian states and sometimes the Papacy had encouraged such the 1st crusade in the modern term of the word was still about 25 years off albeit that the trigger for that, the Greek empire's defeat by the Seljuks in 1071 is only 4-5 years off and could still occur. Although given some butterflies the empire might manage to put itself together again without external help so the appeal from the eastern empire might not come here.
If the pope did double down it could cause some problems but he has problems with other nations and Harold having secured the continuation of English law and N France probably in some turmoil getting another ruler to try deposing Harold could be a bit awkward. I think by this time he's on decent terms with the Normans in S Italy, who have already largely established themselves IIRC but their more likely going to be looking south or east than heading north.Not sure what the situation was with the HRE at this time but not too many other areas under Papal influence in a political and geographical position to be recruited.
Plus as you say the Church was trying to avoid intra-Christian conflict so not a good time to try and prompt another invasion. Apart from anything else Harold might respond by refusing to pay Peter's Pence which, especially if followed by other rulers could hit Papal funds somewhat. - Actually looking that up it started with the Anglo-Saxons although seems to have dwindled by the mid 11thC to be a trivial amount so not sure how relevant economically it would.
I know we're a fairly small board but I would suggest you avoid using the term British. Don't think we have any clearly Welsh or Scottish members but would avoid one of them getting offended and ordering a hit on you. At this point England, when not plagued by external foes has no claims on or formal government interaction with other parts of the British Isles.
Steve
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Post by Max Sinister on Oct 8, 2023 1:05:13 GMT
France may actually unify later, since there is no powerful opponent like England-Normandy around. (Germany aka East Francia aka HRE might work too, but they used to be preoccupied with Italy and the pope.)
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