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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Sept 23, 2023 12:06:47 GMT
What if for some reasons Prussia never reformed it's army to be the best in Europe but it was Austria that did that instead? It would be Austria that first introduced breech loaded rifles and artillery and first invented the General Staff.
Obviously Austria would win the Austro-Prussian war. What would happen next?
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Post by Max Sinister on Sept 23, 2023 20:57:46 GMT
Seems you'd need a multi-PoD for this. Remove Moltke senior and Roon, probably Bismarck too, and give the Austrians someone who can achieve what you want.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Sept 24, 2023 11:51:46 GMT
Seems you'd need a multi-PoD for this. Remove Moltke senior and Roon, probably Bismarck too, and give the Austrians someone who can achieve what you want. I know. This is why I removed the AHC part and decided to concentrate on WI. So Austria whoops Prussia's ass and then what? |
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Post by Max Sinister on Sept 27, 2023 18:54:12 GMT
Seems you'd need a multi-PoD for this. Remove Moltke senior and Roon, probably Bismarck too, and give the Austrians someone who can achieve what you want. I know. This is why I removed the AHC part and decided to concentrate on WI. So Austria whoops Prussia's ass and then what? Austria and its allies had already decided how to distribute the war booty: Silesia to Austria, Lusatia back to Saxony (borders of 1813 or so), Hohenzollern to Württemberg, part of Westphalia to Hanover, part of the Rhineland to Bavaria.
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Post by raharris1973 on Nov 16, 2023 2:22:03 GMT
How early could these reforms take place? Because any reforms resulting in the Austrians kicking Prussian butt should be apparent by the time of the 1864 war with Denmark, on both the Austrian and Prussian sides.
Unless the reforms are brand new, the reforms could change the outcome of the Second War of Italian independence or Franco-Austrian War of 1859-1860.
I could easily tell from the context and technology you were referencing you were looking at the two countries in the mid-19th century, but you could easily ask a similar question about them in the 18th century and the time of Frederick the Great and Maria Teresa's succession. With a what if about what if her father was smarter and listened to the advice to spend the money strengthening the Army instead of spending it all on bribes to get empty promises from other powers to back the Pragmatic Sanction.
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 16, 2023 3:01:58 GMT
I'm always one for stretching out processes and reforms in the 19th century, to reflect that it was an age where, for various technical, social and other reasons, any rapid reform hit roadblocks and/or traffic accidents. Thus, for something to show in the 1860s, starting before 1848 is ideal. Somewhere around 1836 would allow for a good two 'military generations' to go through and compound their organisational and technical advances and reforms prior to 1864/1866.
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Post by American hist on Nov 21, 2023 17:45:48 GMT
I may not be skilled in Prussian history however the Austrians did have a chance that they alone could have won the Austria-Prussian war.
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Post by Max Sinister on Nov 26, 2023 5:38:06 GMT
Suggestion for a PoD that might work: Many people considered Maximilian, brother of Franz Joseph, to be the smarter one. (Some also guessed that his real father was Napoleon II.) Maybe the assassination attempt on Franz Joseph is successful here?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 26, 2023 14:29:58 GMT
Suggestion for a PoD that might work: Many people considered Maximilian, brother of Franz Joseph, to be the smarter one. (Some also guessed that his real father was Napoleon II.) Maybe the assassination attempt on Franz Joseph is successful here?
That might be too late as Prussia has a very competent military system in place while the Austria empire, even before it became a due monarchy was handicapped by a complex bureaucracy and many vested interests as well as all the national groups, many of whom were resentful of the two ruling elites. I think you would need something markedly earlier.
One aspect of a TL I played around with had Austria do a little better at the Battle of Wagram before going down which means a harsher peace treaty, including the separation of the kingdom of Hungary which is passed to one of Napoleon's brothers. This prompts reforms and also the rejection of Napoleon's approach to Vienna for Marie-Louisa hand and he ends up marrying a Bavarian princess. Napoleon still goes down but with different conflicts with heavy fighting in central Germany and Poland in 1812-13 before Austria's entry into the conflict in 1813-14 helps bring him down, Coupled with the defeat of a Prussian army in 1815, along with a less crushing of an Anglo-Dutch one in TTL's equivalent of the 100 days before Austro-Russian forces overwhelm him. As a result Prussia is left badly drained while Austria, which doesn't regain Hungary gets more compensation in Germany including Bavaria.
This led to another big clash in the 1840's which after some heavy fighting sees the Austrian led alliance defeating Prussia and its allies and pretty much the eclipse of Prussia as a great power with Austria Saxony and Hanover all gaining significant chunks and the Rhineland provinces - which are different here - becoming a separate state.
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