ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
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Post by ukron on Jul 21, 2023 15:54:52 GMT
The Indian campaignAs Bonaparte's reduced army prepared to land in Ceylon, his project might appear, like the Irish expedition, as David facing Goliath in the heart of the British Empire. However, on closer inspection, the situation appeared rather favorable to a foreign expedition. While the EIC had reached its apogee in terms of territorial reach and armed force (up to 190,000 men, the vast majority of them Indian Cipayes) under the leadership of Richrd Wellesley, his expensive policies had frightened the company's shareholders and led to his recall. His successor, George Barlow, reduced expenditure and focused on making a profit for what remained, despite its territorial hold, a private company. Taking advantage of the period of peace, Paris was also able to discreetly re-establish a presence with the Indian states, notably the Marathi Confederation and Hyderabad, an old ally from the days of the ancien régime. British pressure following these diplomatic overtures led to renewed Anglo-Indian tensions, despite the prudence of Governor General Lord Minto. The bellicose Marquis d'Hastings, who succeeded him in 1813, had aggravated this hostility and provoked a new conflict with the Marâthes, much to the fury of London, whose finances were already shattered enough to have to support a new Indian conflict. What's more, since 1806, a series of mutinies among the Cipay troops had weakened the company's military capabilities and undermined mutual trust between the British and the locals. As Bonaparte landed in Ceylon, the commander of the British garrison in Colombo, convinced he was dealing with a raid rather than an invasion, mobilized all available troops to confront him in open country. Well advised by the former Dutch colonial administrators, Bonaparte easily won the battle and then continued his conquest, taking Colombo and then most of the island. After signing a treaty with the Kingdom of Kandy, the Franco-Dutch marched on Jaffna, in the north of the country, where they defeated a reinforcing British army, before being reinforced by several hundred soldiers sent from Cape Town and Mauritius. For Hastings, the French invasion was a major setback, forcing him not to exploit his early successes in the fight against the Marathas and to let them reorganize. At the same time, disturbing news reached him: Admiral Decaen's fleet had won a major victory over the British in the North Atlantic, forcing the Royal Navy to concentrate on defending Great Britain and giving the French greater freedom of movement in outlying theaters. In Paris and The Hague, plans were already afoot to send massive reinforcements to India, under the impetus of Lucien Bonaparte, who declared at the Comices that "the brain of British power is in London, but its beating heart is in Calcutta; let's hit it with all our might while we can!". Period drawing of an EIC cipayeOn March 12, 1814, under the command of the excellent Admiral Hamelin, the Franco-Dutch fleet deceived the vigilance of the British and landed an expeditionary force of 3,300 men near Mahé, a former French trading post on the western coast of the subcontinent. The troops quickly took the town, then set out to conquer the Sultanate of Mysore. Almost without a fight, Bonaparte took the fortress of Seringapatam and restored power to the successors of Haidar Ali and Tipû Sahib, promising to return all lost provinces to the Mysore state. Expecting a landing near Pondicherry, Hastings was forced to react quickly and march against Mysore. Forced to fight on three fronts, against Bonaparte, the Marâthes and internal dissidence within the EIC domains, he had to give up after six months of campaigning, leaving the Franco-Dutch sole masters of the southern tip. Nevertheless, his replacement, Arthur Wellesley, brother of the former Governor General, arrived in Madras with 15,000 reinforcements. A brilliant soldier, he reorganized his troops and restored their confidence, before trapping and destroying the bulk of the Maratha army. Freed from the northern front, he launched an offensive against Bonaparte, forcing him to retreat as far as Seringapatam. Arthur Wellesley, arguably Bonaparte's greatest adversaryThe decisive confrontation saw Wellesley field more than 40,000 men, while the French had painstakingly assembled 25,000 men, European and local, including several hundred recently arrived veterans of the Atlantic campaigns, fanatically devoted to Bonaparte. On June 18, 1816, the Frenchman was confident in the quality of his troops and his defensive position, but was surprised by his adversary's maneuvering skills and was almost overrun on his left. Thinking the battle lost, he contemplated a last-chance charge, when the cavalry of the Nezam of Hyderabad appeared in the enemy's rear and turned the tide.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Jul 21, 2023 20:36:57 GMT
I would be interested to know how France is able to maintain such a sizeable fleet under those conditions? Let alone being able to reinforce Napoleon in India despite the problems of communications that would occur? I doubt Paris would send such a reinforcement without some knowledge of how things were going and in the pre-telegraph age even without a clear superiority at sea that would take months and be way behind events actually in India.
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
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Post by miletus12 on Jul 21, 2023 21:38:30 GMT
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
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Post by stevep on Jul 22, 2023 12:59:01 GMT
Yes the fact the RN was heavily committed against the Napoleonic empire and its puppets, coupled with the long US coastline did mean that American privateers were a problem for the RN.
The Walcheren campaign was an attempt at drawing pressure off Austria who was also under attack at this stage. The big error in it was the decision of political figures in London to maintain a force on the island to seek to block the estuary despite warnings of the potential problems with disease in the area which caused the bulk of the casualties. The other issue was abysmal lack of coordination between the army and navy commanders in the force.
While Britain frequently had a larger number of ships that their opponents, especially after Trafalgar OTL the core of the advantage was in quality rather than quantity. Whether the Republican French navy could change that in the slightly longer period of peace would be the big challenge.
This still ignores the key issue of how Paris is to know of how Napoleon is doing in suitable time to not only find a way around the blockade but for them to reach India in time. Especially since his original target was Australia. It would be stupid to send a reinforcing force to India until they know that he's actually there and also doing well.
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ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
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Post by ukron on Jul 22, 2023 15:04:01 GMT
The end of the revolutionary wars
The decisive nature of the Battle of Seringapatam has long been recognized as a fact by historiography, but has been questioned in recent decades. Recent research has focused on the consequences of the eruption of Tambora the previous year and its climatic repercussions: for some historians, the United Kingdom could have continued the war for several years and re-established the situation in India had the economic crisis not made the social situation in Great Britain untenable. In any case, the news of India's defeat caused even greater consternation than the naval setbacks, bringing down for good the morale of the population, already subjected for months to severe deprivation and disastrous harvests. On September 3, in London, the departure of a stock of wheat for Southampton provoked a riot: rumor had it that the wheat would be used to feed a new expeditionary force bound for India. While order was restored in London after several days of violence, it was the northern cities, already in the grip of Luddite unrest, that caught fire. In Manchester, the troops refused to fire on the rioters, and an insurrectionary municipality was set up. Initially demanding guaranteed wheat supplies and representation in Parliament, the movement became more radical and founded a Free Commune, refusing to accept London's authority. The canon had to be used to put an end to this dissent. This was too much for London: faced with the risk of revolution, Great Britain signed an armistice in Cherbourg on September 15. The president of the Tribunate, Joseph Fouché, insisted that negotiations on European and maritime issues be held in Brussels, while the Indian question would be settled by an ad hoc congress in Pondicherry, no doubt with a view to keeping the increasingly popular Bonaparte away from the metropolis. Luddite riots
Meanwhile, before the news of the Cherbourg treaty was known, the Franco-Dutch and their Indian allies had gone on to lay siege to Madras, while Wellesley had been forced to move his headquarters to Bengal, a region still beyond the reach of England's enemies; he learned of his replacement by Lord Minto at the same time as the peace. The French delegation to the Calcutta conference was headed by Bonaparte himself, but flanked by a team of diplomats sent by Paris. The negotiations consecrated France's return to the Indian game: Paris saw its coastal possessions lost during the Seven Years' War come back into its fold, and became the protecting power of Tavancore and Mysore. States such as Hyderabad and the Marath Confederation would be grateful allies, but would play on the rivalry between the two powers to maintain the widest possible room for manoeuvre. After much hesitation, the conference decided to maintain the fiction of the Mughal Emperor's suzerainty over the subcontinent; he would not, of course, regain any real power over the other Indian states, still less over the territories under European control, but nevertheless obtained the evacuation of Delhi by the British, regaining control of the city in the manner of a Capetian king managing his small royal domain. Appointed Proconsul of the Indies, Napoleon Bonaparte put all his energy into imposing the same reforms in the reconquered territories as he had implemented in the Mississippi Provinces: administrative reorganization, local military development and the beginnings of industrialization. "India will not content herself with sending tea to France, she will contribute to making the Fatherland shine in the world through the use of her own forces". It was also during this period that his last child, Alexandre Bonaparte, was born from his affair with a local aristocrat. In 1819, however, he surprised everyone by leaving his post and returning to France. This decision was prompted by the first signs of failing health, as well as the death of his eldest son, Charles-Napoléon, from tuberculosis, leaving behind three young children. The final years
If the leaders of the Republic feared a return of the laurelled general to metropolitan politics, they were quickly reassured by the weakened and fatter Bonaparte who appeared before them. "How could a man as paunchy as I be ambitious?" he joked [1]. Joseph Fouché, President of the TribunateHe remained in Paris to witness Lucien's appointment as President of the Tribunate, after Joseph Fouché's downfall, but soon set sail for New Orleans, where he had long declared his intention to end his days. Disembarking in May 1821, he was reunited with his brother-in-law Murat, who had been running the colony since his departure, in line with his policy of personal power. Settled on a plantation north of the capital, he devoted himself to writing his two posthumously published works: De la guerre expéditionnaire, a theoretical reflection, and Mémoires, which remained unfinished. In 1822, a Greek delegation crossed the Atlantic to offer him the leadership of a future rebellion. He declined the offer, but nevertheless sent his guests some valuable officers. Recent research has revealed the existence of a similar project among the Indians of the Southern Cone of the Americas: a delegation was to travel to the Mississippi to offer Bonaparte the crown of Araucania and Patagonia! Nevertheless, it was against illness that Bonaparte struggled during the last years of his life. He breathed his last on February 12, 1823, dictating an unsurprising will dividing his fortune among his children. A national mourning was proclaimed in New Orleans, then in Paris. A battle ensued between the two capitals to determine the location of his tomb, with Murat finally imposing New Orleans, where a gigantic mausoleum was built following a subscription campaign. It is on his coffin that the title by which he is best known today is engraved: "General and Hero of the Three Worlds". Epilogue
Having emerged from obscurity thanks to the Revolution, Bonaparte had never worn a crown, but he founded a dynasty of sorts, as his numerous descendants would be associated with the destinies of the following centuries: while his grandson Charles-Napoléon had an honorable but lacklustre career in France, Paul-Emile Bonaparte covered himself in glory as a cavalry officer during the Missouri wars against the English-speaking colonists, before becoming Prefect and then Proconsul of Mississippi from 1855 to 1861. The Indian branch of the family produced multiple colonial administrators, then the first post-independence ruler, Eskandar Bonaparte, in 1987. Through a series of prestigious marriages, he was related by blood to most of the great princely houses of the subcontinent. Octavie Bonaparte's descendants, for their part, remained known as the wine and spirits barons of Mississippi and Texas, exporting the country's famous whiskies! Apart from Napoleon's direct descendants, other Bonapartes have also etched their names in history: while Lucien did not long outlive his brother, Louis-Napoléon, son of his brother Louis, was Minister of Industry and then President of the Tribunate from 1862 to 1869, and is regarded as a modernizing figure. The Murat dynasty continues to play an important role in Mississippi politics, with a great-grandson of Murat and Caroline Bonaparte becoming the first President of the Republic of Mississippi. [1] Authentic quote from the Hundred Days!
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on Jul 22, 2023 20:18:21 GMT
Yes the fact the RN was heavily committed against the Napoleonic empire and its puppets, coupled with the long US coastline did mean that American privateers were a problem for the RN.
The Walcheren campaign was an attempt at drawing pressure off Austria who was also under attack at this stage. The big error in it was the decision of political figures in London to maintain a force on the island to seek to block the estuary despite warnings of the potential problems with disease in the area which caused the bulk of the casualties. The other issue was abysmal lack of coordination between the army and navy commanders in the force.
While Britain frequently had a larger number of ships that their opponents, especially after Trafalgar OTL the core of the advantage was in quality rather than quantity. Whether the Republican French navy could change that in the slightly longer period of peace would be the big challenge.
This still ignores the key issue of how Paris is to know of how Napoleon is doing in suitable time to not only find a way around the blockade but for them to reach India in time. Especially since his original target was Australia. It would be stupid to send a reinforcing force to India until they know that he's actually there and also doing well.
1. The Americans were loose upon the world ocean. It is not their fault that British local commanders could not read wind nor wave, or lacked the sense to go after the very vulnerable and very few US shipyards. Big showy raids like Baltimore and Washington and New Orleans might look good in the history books, but Gosport and the New Jersey shipyards were ignored? 2. The Walcheran campaign was a disaster due to incompetent preparation, inter-service rivalries and divided command. The fact that the imbeciles who led the command did not provide even the minimalist field sanitation training of an American 1812 army to their British troops did not help the British. Also, before the British ever sailed, Archduke Charles had his posterior handed to him on a silver plate. The Austrians were already looking for a peace in the immediate aftermath, which , so what was the point again? The British prime minister, in charge of their government, made one of his usual decisions, I suppose. I don't mean Spencer Percival, I mean what's his name, the guy who presided over the government way back when, that gave up to us at the Treaty of Paris in 1783. Berntinck? Anyway, the French opposition was made of 3rd class troops, who were whipped into shape by Bernadotte, who had the good judgement, when he saw what he faced, to let malaria, dysentery and a good strong dose of swampy waters do the British in. Very little fighting was necessary. Very smart man, Bernadotte. One of Napoleon's best. 3. The French navy could do alright. Their main problem was threefold. a. One was a technical issue in that they nailed their ships together, from not properly seasoned and dried wood, instead of pegged the joints. It took longer for the British to build their ships, but the sturdiness was superior, as was the hull flex and the water-tightness. Not so much use of bilge pumps. French ships were cheaper and faster to make, which is okay if you need a throwaway navy in a hurry (Perry, Lake Erie). French ships were faster and could turn in a fight better, but had inferior guns' operating cycles. This was a simple difference in that the French still used paper fuse inserts and matches in their touch-holes whereas, the British used flint and frission ignition to spark their guns off. They did not wait for a fuse to burn down as the gun crew jumped clear of recoil. They expected their gun crews to hop too, before the the trigger man pulled the lanyard. Add to this 5 to 10 second fire on the roll artillery difference, the less efficient sail plan layouts. It took longer for French top-siders to reset sails than it did for the English. Not a question of training, but a question of the mechanical systems here. The input mechanicals handicapped the French crews with an engineering set of flaws that led to less VERTICAL accuracy in the yaw vector when they fired their broadsides. Hence; the British got off three cycles to the French two and the British could hit hulls more consistently. The French, cursed with a time lag of fuse burn-down and bilge slosh and scamper lag aloft, made a virtue of technical inferiority. They shot at sails, masts and rigging, to cripple maneuver, and then they sought close muzzle to muzzle action so they could send over marines. b. The French navy lacked sea-time and a large experienced civil cadre of seafarers. Nothing trains ships' crews faster than time at sea. You cannot simulate ship-handling in port, no matter how many pier-side monkey drills you run. You have to have wind and current, navigation hazards and maneuver time of ships in company to work out the kinks of fleet actions. The French did not put to sea enough to earn this experience. It is no wonder, since they knew their ships' design defects and shortcomings. Of course, a French admiral could have been like Perry and taken his landlubbers out again and again until they got the basics down for when the actual fight came. In those days, 90 days was about enough, to drill in the muscle memory. Perry drowned and injured a lot of men, but the survivors turned to and showed that the British were not the only ones who could do that British thing. By the way, I would like to thank Admiral Suffren for his contribution to my nation's independence. It turns out that the British were very much aware, despite the time lag of months, that this French admiral was well on his way to breaking the British hold on India since he kept beating them over and over in those waters. The British were left with two choices, keep fighting in America and lose India, too; or "make peace you fools". They caved and saved India by a mere cat's whisker. c. Speaking of sail plan layouts, such a simple thing as common windlass assists and uniform interchangeable block and tackle manufacture and rigging and superior rope made working a British ship much easier than a Frenchman. All of those handicaps, just highlights Suffren's technical and operational genius, do you not think? Grant another admiral of that quality to the French and Britain is in trouble, again? ================================================================= What the French and Americans knew in 1783, would apply in 1800+.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
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Post by stevep on Jul 23, 2023 12:00:00 GMT
Yes the fact the RN was heavily committed against the Napoleonic empire and its puppets, coupled with the long US coastline did mean that American privateers were a problem for the RN.
The Walcheren campaign was an attempt at drawing pressure off Austria who was also under attack at this stage. The big error in it was the decision of political figures in London to maintain a force on the island to seek to block the estuary despite warnings of the potential problems with disease in the area which caused the bulk of the casualties. The other issue was abysmal lack of coordination between the army and navy commanders in the force.
While Britain frequently had a larger number of ships that their opponents, especially after Trafalgar OTL the core of the advantage was in quality rather than quantity. Whether the Republican French navy could change that in the slightly longer period of peace would be the big challenge.
This still ignores the key issue of how Paris is to know of how Napoleon is doing in suitable time to not only find a way around the blockade but for them to reach India in time. Especially since his original target was Australia. It would be stupid to send a reinforcing force to India until they know that he's actually there and also doing well.
1. The Americans were loose upon the world ocean. It is not their fault that British local commanders could not read wind nor wave, or lacked the sense to go after the very vulnerable and very few US shipyards. Big showy raids like Baltimore and Washington and New Orleans might look good in the history books, but Gosport and the New Jersey shipyards were ignored? 2. The Walcheran campaign was a disaster due to incompetent preparation, inter-service rivalries and divided command. The fact that the imbeciles who led the command did not provide even the minimalist field sanitation training of an American 1812 army to their British troops did not help the British. Also, before the British ever sailed, Archduke Charles had his posterior handed to him on a silver plate. The Austrians were already looking for a peace in the immediate aftermath, which , so what was the point again? The British prime minister, in charge of their government, made one of his usual decisions, I suppose. I don't mean Spencer Percival, I mean what's his name, the guy who presided over the government way back when, that gave up to us at the Treaty of Paris in 1783. Berntinck? Anyway, the French opposition was made of 3rd class troops, who were whipped into shape by Bernadotte, who had the good judgement, when he saw what he faced, to let malaria, dysentery and a good strong dose of swampy waters do the British in. Very little fighting was necessary. Very smart man, Bernadotte. One of Napoleon's best. 3. The French navy could do alright. Their main problem was threefold. a. One was a technical issue in that they nailed their ships together, from not properly seasoned and dried wood, instead of pegged the joints. It took longer for the British to build their ships, but the sturdiness was superior, as was the hull flex and the water-tightness. Not so much use of bilge pumps. French ships were cheaper and faster to make, which is okay if you need a throwaway navy in a hurry (Perry, Lake Erie). French ships were faster and could turn in a fight better, but had inferior guns' operating cycles. This was a simple difference in that the French still used paper fuse inserts and matches in their touch-holes whereas, the British used flint and frission ignition to spark their guns off. They did not wait for a fuse to burn down as the gun crew jumped clear of recoil. They expected their gun crews to hop too, before the the trigger man pulled the lanyard. Asdd to this 5 to 10 second fire on the roll artillery difference, the less efficient sail plan layouts. It took longer for French top-siders to reset sails than it did for the English. Not a question of training, but a question of the mechanical systems here. The input mechanicals handicapped the French crews with an engineering set of flaws that led to less VERTICAL accuracy in the yaw vector when they fired their broadsides. Hence; the British got off three cycles to French two and the British could hit hulls more consistently. The French, cursed with a time lag of fuse burndown and bilge slosh and scamper lag aloft, made a virtue of technical inferiority. They shot at sails, masts and rigging, to cripple maneuver and then they sought close muzzle to muzzle action so they could send over marines. b. The French navy lacked sea-time and a large experienced civil cadre of seafarers. Nothing trains ships' crews faster than time at sea. You cannot simulate ship-handling in port, no matter how many pier-side monkey drills you run. You have to have wind and current, navigation hazards and maneuver time of ships in company to work out the kinks of fleet actions. The French did not put to sea enough to earn this experience. It is no wonder, since they knew their shipos' design defects and shortcomings. Of course, a French admiral could have been like Perry and taken his landlubbers out again and again until they got the basics down for when the actual fight came. In those days, 90 days was about enough, to drill in the muscle memory. Perry drowned and injured a lot of men, but the survivors turned to and showed that the British were not the only ones who could do that British thing. By the way, I would like to thank Admiral Suffren for his contribution to my nation's independence. It turns out that the British were very much aware, despite the time lag of months, that this French admiral was well on his way to breaking the British hold on India since he kept beating them over and over in those waters. The British were left with two choices, keep fighting in America and lose India, too; or "make peace you fools". They caved and saved India by a mere cat's whisker. c. Speaking of sail plan layouts, such a simple thing as common windlass assists and uniform interchangeable block and tackle manufacture and rigging and superior rope made working a British ship much easier than a Frenchman. All of those handicaps, just highlights Suffren's technical and operational genius, do you not think? Grant another admiral of that quality to the French and Britain is in trouble, again? ================================================================= What the French and Americans knew in 1783, would apply in 1800+.
There are some factual information there but much of it is obscured by your usual bigotry.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
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Post by stevep on Jul 23, 2023 12:03:25 GMT
The end of the revolutionary wars
The decisive nature of the Battle of Seringapatam has long been recognized as a fact by historiography, but has been questioned in recent decades. Recent research has focused on the consequences of the eruption of Tambora the previous year and its climatic repercussions: for some historians, the United Kingdom could have continued the war for several years and re-established the situation in India had the economic crisis not made the social situation in Great Britain untenable. In any case, the news of India's defeat caused even greater consternation than the naval setbacks, bringing down for good the morale of the population, already subjected for months to severe deprivation and disastrous harvests. On September 3, in London, the departure of a stock of wheat for Southampton provoked a riot: rumor had it that the wheat would be used to feed a new expeditionary force bound for India. While order was restored in London after several days of violence, it was the northern cities, already in the grip of Luddite unrest, that caught fire. In Manchester, the troops refused to fire on the rioters, and an insurrectionary municipality was set up. Initially demanding guaranteed wheat supplies and representation in Parliament, the movement became more radical and founded a Free Commune, refusing to accept London's authority. The canon had to be used to put an end to this dissent. This was too much for London: faced with the risk of revolution, Great Britain signed an armistice in Cherbourg on September 15. The president of the Tribunate, Joseph Fouché, insisted that negotiations on European and maritime issues be held in Brussels, while the Indian question would be settled by an ad hoc congress in Pondicherry, no doubt with a view to keeping the increasingly popular Bonaparte away from the metropolis. Luddite riots
Meanwhile, before the news of the Cherbourg treaty was known, the Franco-Dutch and their Indian allies had gone on to lay siege to Madras, while Wellesley had been forced to move his headquarters to Bengal, a region still beyond the reach of England's enemies; he learned of his replacement by Lord Minto at the same time as the peace. The French delegation to the Calcutta conference was headed by Bonaparte himself, but flanked by a team of diplomats sent by Paris. The negotiations consecrated France's return to the Indian game: Paris saw its coastal possessions lost during the Seven Years' War come back into its fold, and became the protecting power of Tavancore and Mysore. States such as Hyderabad and the Marath Confederation would be grateful allies, but would play on the rivalry between the two powers to maintain the widest possible room for manoeuvre. After much hesitation, the conference decided to maintain the fiction of the Mughal Emperor's suzerainty over the subcontinent; he would not, of course, regain any real power over the other Indian states, still less over the territories under European control, but nevertheless obtained the evacuation of Delhi by the British, regaining control of the city in the manner of a Capetian king managing his small royal domain. Appointed Proconsul of the Indies, Napoleon Bonaparte put all his energy into imposing the same reforms in the reconquered territories as he had implemented in the Mississippi Provinces: administrative reorganization, local military development and the beginnings of industrialization. "India will not content herself with sending tea to France, she will contribute to making the Fatherland shine in the world through the use of her own forces". It was also during this period that his last child, Alexandre Bonaparte, was born from his affair with a local aristocrat. In 1819, however, he surprised everyone by leaving his post and returning to France. This decision was prompted by the first signs of failing health, as well as the death of his eldest son, Charles-Napoléon, from tuberculosis, leaving behind three young children. The final years
If the leaders of the Republic feared a return of the laurelled general to metropolitan politics, they were quickly reassured by the weakened and fatter Bonaparte who appeared before them. "How could a man as paunchy as I be ambitious?" he joked [1]. Joseph Fouché, President of the TribunateHe remained in Paris to witness Lucien's appointment as President of the Tribunate, after Joseph Fouché's downfall, but soon set sail for New Orleans, where he had long declared his intention to end his days. Disembarking in May 1821, he was reunited with his brother-in-law Murat, who had been running the colony since his departure, in line with his policy of personal power. Settled on a plantation north of the capital, he devoted himself to writing his two posthumously published works: De la guerre expéditionnaire, a theoretical reflection, and Mémoires, which remained unfinished. In 1822, a Greek delegation crossed the Atlantic to offer him the leadership of a future rebellion. He declined the offer, but nevertheless sent his guests some valuable officers. Recent research has revealed the existence of a similar project among the Indians of the Southern Cone of the Americas: a delegation was to travel to the Mississippi to offer Bonaparte the crown of Araucania and Patagonia! Nevertheless, it was against illness that Bonaparte struggled during the last years of his life. He breathed his last on February 12, 1823, dictating an unsurprising will dividing his fortune among his children. A national mourning was proclaimed in New Orleans, then in Paris. A battle ensued between the two capitals to determine the location of his tomb, with Murat finally imposing New Orleans, where a gigantic mausoleum was built following a subscription campaign. It is on his coffin that the title by which he is best known today is engraved: "General and Hero of the Three Worlds". Epilogue
Having emerged from obscurity thanks to the Revolution, Bonaparte had never worn a crown, but he founded a dynasty of sorts, as his numerous descendants would be associated with the destinies of the following centuries: while his grandson Charles-Napoléon had an honorable but lacklustre career in France, Paul-Emile Bonaparte covered himself in glory as a cavalry officer during the Missouri wars against the English-speaking colonists, before becoming Prefect and then Proconsul of Mississippi from 1855 to 1861. The Indian branch of the family produced multiple colonial administrators, then the first post-independence ruler, Eskandar Bonaparte, in 1987. Through a series of prestigious marriages, he was related by blood to most of the great princely houses of the subcontinent. Octavie Bonaparte's descendants, for their part, remained known as the wine and spirits barons of Mississippi and Texas, exporting the country's famous whiskies! Apart from Napoleon's direct descendants, other Bonapartes have also etched their names in history: while Lucien did not long outlive his brother, Louis-Napoléon, son of his brother Louis, was Minister of Industry and then President of the Tribunate from 1862 to 1869, and is regarded as a modernizing figure. The Murat dynasty continues to play an important role in Mississippi politics, with a great-grandson of Murat and Caroline Bonaparte becoming the first President of the Republic of Mississippi. [1] Authentic quote from the Hundred Days!
How draconian is the peace imposed in Europe and how much of the continent remains - for the moment - under French rule? Also what happens to the assorted colonial possessions of the assorted great powers?
I would expect further conflict in India because while its importance is overstated in terms of British power its still an important market and also your likely to see continued instability unless the Marathas - as the most likely candidate - can get their act together.
Will there be more on the following years or is this the end of the TL?
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miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
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Post by miletus12 on Jul 23, 2023 16:50:04 GMT
1. The Americans were loose upon the world ocean. It is not their fault that British local commanders could not read wind nor wave, or lacked the sense to go after the very vulnerable and very few US shipyards. Big showy raids like Baltimore and Washington and New Orleans might look good in the history books, but Gosport and the New Jersey shipyards were ignored? 2. The Walcheran campaign was a disaster due to incompetent preparation, inter-service rivalries and divided command. The fact that the imbeciles who led the command did not provide even the minimalist field sanitation training of an American 1812 army to their British troops did not help the British. Also, before the British ever sailed, Archduke Charles had his posterior handed to him on a silver plate. The Austrians were already looking for a peace in the immediate aftermath, which , so what was the point again? The British prime minister, in charge of their government, made one of his usual decisions, I suppose. I don't mean Spencer Percival, I mean what's his name, the guy who presided over the government way back when, that gave up to us at the Treaty of Paris in 1783. Berntinck? Anyway, the French opposition was made of 3rd class troops, who were whipped into shape by Bernadotte, who had the good judgement, when he saw what he faced, to let malaria, dysentery and a good strong dose of swampy waters do the British in. Very little fighting was necessary. Very smart man, Bernadotte. One of Napoleon's best. 3. The French navy could do alright. Their main problem was threefold. a. One was a technical issue in that they nailed their ships together, from not properly seasoned and dried wood, instead of pegged the joints. It took longer for the British to build their ships, but the sturdiness was superior, as was the hull flex and the water-tightness. Not so much use of bilge pumps. French ships were cheaper and faster to make, which is okay if you need a throwaway navy in a hurry (Perry, Lake Erie). French ships were faster and could turn in a fight better, but had inferior guns' operating cycles. This was a simple difference in that the French still used paper fuse inserts and matches in their touch-holes whereas, the British used flint and frission ignition to spark their guns off. They did not wait for a fuse to burn down as the gun crew jumped clear of recoil. They expected their gun crews to hop too, before the the trigger man pulled the lanyard. Add to this 5 to 10 second fire on the roll artillery difference, the less efficient sail plan layouts. It took longer for French top-siders to reset sails than it did for the English. Not a question of training, but a question of the mechanical systems here. The input mechanicals handicapped the French crews with an engineering set of flaws that led to less VERTICAL accuracy in the yaw vector when they fired their broadsides. Hence; the British got off three cycles to French two and the British could hit hulls more consistently. The French, cursed with a time lag of fuse burndown and bilge slosh and scamper lag aloft, made a virtue of technical inferiority. They shot at sails, masts and rigging, to cripple maneuver and then they sought close muzzle to muzzle action so they could send over marines. b. The French navy lacked sea-time and a large experienced civil cadre of seafarers. Nothing trains ships' crews faster than time at sea. You cannot simulate ship-handling in port, no matter how many pier-side monkey drills you run. You have to have wind and current, navigation hazards and maneuver time of ships in company to work out the kinks of fleet actions. The French did not put to sea enough to earn this experience. It is no wonder, since they knew their ships' design defects and shortcomings. Of course, a French admiral could have been like Perry and taken his landlubbers out again and again until they got the basics down for when the actual fight came. In those days, 90 days was about enough, to drill in the muscle memory. Perry drowned and injured a lot of men, but the survivors turned to and showed that the British were not the only ones who could do that British thing. By the way, I would like to thank Admiral Suffren for his contribution to my nation's independence. It turns out that the British were very much aware, despite the time lag of months, that this French admiral was well on his way to breaking the British hold on India since he kept beating them over and over in those waters. The British were left with two choices, keep fighting in America and lose India, too; or "make peace you fools". They caved and saved India by a mere cat's whisker. c. Speaking of sail plan layouts, such a simple thing as common windlass assists and uniform interchangeable block and tackle manufacture and rigging and superior rope made working a British ship much easier than a Frenchman. All of those handicaps, just highlights Suffren's technical and operational genius, do you not think? Grant another admiral of that quality to the French and Britain is in trouble, again? ================================================================= What the French and Americans knew in 1783, would apply in 1800+.
There are some factual information there but much of it is obscured by your usual bigotry.
100% factual. No bigotry.
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Jul 24, 2023 14:51:54 GMT
The end of the revolutionary wars
The decisive nature of the Battle of Seringapatam has long been recognized as a fact by historiography, but has been questioned in recent decades. Recent research has focused on the consequences of the eruption of Tambora the previous year and its climatic repercussions: for some historians, the United Kingdom could have continued the war for several years and re-established the situation in India had the economic crisis not made the social situation in Great Britain untenable. In any case, the news of India's defeat caused even greater consternation than the naval setbacks, bringing down for good the morale of the population, already subjected for months to severe deprivation and disastrous harvests. On September 3, in London, the departure of a stock of wheat for Southampton provoked a riot: rumor had it that the wheat would be used to feed a new expeditionary force bound for India. While order was restored in London after several days of violence, it was the northern cities, already in the grip of Luddite unrest, that caught fire. In Manchester, the troops refused to fire on the rioters, and an insurrectionary municipality was set up. Initially demanding guaranteed wheat supplies and representation in Parliament, the movement became more radical and founded a Free Commune, refusing to accept London's authority. The canon had to be used to put an end to this dissent. This was too much for London: faced with the risk of revolution, Great Britain signed an armistice in Cherbourg on September 15. The president of the Tribunate, Joseph Fouché, insisted that negotiations on European and maritime issues be held in Brussels, while the Indian question would be settled by an ad hoc congress in Pondicherry, no doubt with a view to keeping the increasingly popular Bonaparte away from the metropolis. Luddite riots
Meanwhile, before the news of the Cherbourg treaty was known, the Franco-Dutch and their Indian allies had gone on to lay siege to Madras, while Wellesley had been forced to move his headquarters to Bengal, a region still beyond the reach of England's enemies; he learned of his replacement by Lord Minto at the same time as the peace. The French delegation to the Calcutta conference was headed by Bonaparte himself, but flanked by a team of diplomats sent by Paris. The negotiations consecrated France's return to the Indian game: Paris saw its coastal possessions lost during the Seven Years' War come back into its fold, and became the protecting power of Tavancore and Mysore. States such as Hyderabad and the Marath Confederation would be grateful allies, but would play on the rivalry between the two powers to maintain the widest possible room for manoeuvre. After much hesitation, the conference decided to maintain the fiction of the Mughal Emperor's suzerainty over the subcontinent; he would not, of course, regain any real power over the other Indian states, still less over the territories under European control, but nevertheless obtained the evacuation of Delhi by the British, regaining control of the city in the manner of a Capetian king managing his small royal domain. Appointed Proconsul of the Indies, Napoleon Bonaparte put all his energy into imposing the same reforms in the reconquered territories as he had implemented in the Mississippi Provinces: administrative reorganization, local military development and the beginnings of industrialization. "India will not content herself with sending tea to France, she will contribute to making the Fatherland shine in the world through the use of her own forces". It was also during this period that his last child, Alexandre Bonaparte, was born from his affair with a local aristocrat. In 1819, however, he surprised everyone by leaving his post and returning to France. This decision was prompted by the first signs of failing health, as well as the death of his eldest son, Charles-Napoléon, from tuberculosis, leaving behind three young children. The final years
If the leaders of the Republic feared a return of the laurelled general to metropolitan politics, they were quickly reassured by the weakened and fatter Bonaparte who appeared before them. "How could a man as paunchy as I be ambitious?" he joked [1]. Joseph Fouché, President of the TribunateHe remained in Paris to witness Lucien's appointment as President of the Tribunate, after Joseph Fouché's downfall, but soon set sail for New Orleans, where he had long declared his intention to end his days. Disembarking in May 1821, he was reunited with his brother-in-law Murat, who had been running the colony since his departure, in line with his policy of personal power. Settled on a plantation north of the capital, he devoted himself to writing his two posthumously published works: De la guerre expéditionnaire, a theoretical reflection, and Mémoires, which remained unfinished. In 1822, a Greek delegation crossed the Atlantic to offer him the leadership of a future rebellion. He declined the offer, but nevertheless sent his guests some valuable officers. Recent research has revealed the existence of a similar project among the Indians of the Southern Cone of the Americas: a delegation was to travel to the Mississippi to offer Bonaparte the crown of Araucania and Patagonia! Nevertheless, it was against illness that Bonaparte struggled during the last years of his life. He breathed his last on February 12, 1823, dictating an unsurprising will dividing his fortune among his children. A national mourning was proclaimed in New Orleans, then in Paris. A battle ensued between the two capitals to determine the location of his tomb, with Murat finally imposing New Orleans, where a gigantic mausoleum was built following a subscription campaign. It is on his coffin that the title by which he is best known today is engraved: "General and Hero of the Three Worlds". Epilogue
Having emerged from obscurity thanks to the Revolution, Bonaparte had never worn a crown, but he founded a dynasty of sorts, as his numerous descendants would be associated with the destinies of the following centuries: while his grandson Charles-Napoléon had an honorable but lacklustre career in France, Paul-Emile Bonaparte covered himself in glory as a cavalry officer during the Missouri wars against the English-speaking colonists, before becoming Prefect and then Proconsul of Mississippi from 1855 to 1861. The Indian branch of the family produced multiple colonial administrators, then the first post-independence ruler, Eskandar Bonaparte, in 1987. Through a series of prestigious marriages, he was related by blood to most of the great princely houses of the subcontinent. Octavie Bonaparte's descendants, for their part, remained known as the wine and spirits barons of Mississippi and Texas, exporting the country's famous whiskies! Apart from Napoleon's direct descendants, other Bonapartes have also etched their names in history: while Lucien did not long outlive his brother, Louis-Napoléon, son of his brother Louis, was Minister of Industry and then President of the Tribunate from 1862 to 1869, and is regarded as a modernizing figure. The Murat dynasty continues to play an important role in Mississippi politics, with a great-grandson of Murat and Caroline Bonaparte becoming the first President of the Republic of Mississippi. [1] Authentic quote from the Hundred Days!
How draconian is the peace imposed in Europe and how much of the continent remains - for the moment - under French rule? Also what happens to the assorted colonial possessions of the assorted great powers?
I would expect further conflict in India because while its importance is overstated in terms of British power its still an important market and also your likely to see continued instability unless the Marathas - as the most likely candidate - can get their act together.
Will there be more on the following years or is this the end of the TL?
First: thanks Stevep and Miletus12 for this interesting debate, I don't find the proper time to read every comments in details for now, but we can suppose that without Napoleon in power, the french navy would have better strategical opportunities and at least the time to strenghthen his "building chains' (which means for instance that without the absurd idea of a french landing in England, Paris could invest into bases on Atlantic coast).
Second: for now that's the end of this timeline but i won't be suprise if Démétrios would decide to write timelines in this proper universe.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 24, 2023 16:02:17 GMT
How draconian is the peace imposed in Europe and how much of the continent remains - for the moment - under French rule? Also what happens to the assorted colonial possessions of the assorted great powers?
I would expect further conflict in India because while its importance is overstated in terms of British power its still an important market and also your likely to see continued instability unless the Marathas - as the most likely candidate - can get their act together.
Will there be more on the following years or is this the end of the TL?
First: thanks Stevep and Miletus12 for this interesting debate, I don't find the proper time to read every comments in details for now, but we can suppose that without Napoleon in power, the french navy would have better strategical opportunities and at least the time to strenghthen his "building chains' (which means for instance that without the absurd idea of a french landing in England, Paris could invest into bases on Atlantic coast).
Second: for now that's the end of this timeline but i won't be suprise if Démétrios would decide to write timelines in this proper universe.
Its a possibility but far from a certainty. Most sources I've read suggested that the republic was in severe crisis for its last few years which lead to the move toward dictatorship under Napoleon - 1st as consort, then as emperor. Unless its able to avoid those problems then the likelihood is that some other military leader would seek to gain power. Which might mean a longer lasting peace without Napoleon's increasing desires for military answers to all solutions or might mean even greater chaos or anywhere in between. However would leave it at that. Some interesting ideas but a lot of questions about how Louisiana would actually develop and how much tension there would be in N America as a result in decades to come. Even with a short path to the Pacific - possibly not as the Oregon/Columbia status is still unresolved - but without Texas the US has no real path for its OTL attack on Mexico in the 1840's and hence annexation of California and other areas. This is going to change the political and economic situation for N America drastically.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jul 25, 2023 14:38:31 GMT
Sidebar: without Texas the US has no real path for its OTL attack on Mexico in the 1840's Here is a brief illustration of the Mexican American War. Do you see how the Americans moved? The Duke of Wellington had something to say about this.Britain's greatest general knew a PEER or should I say "superior" when he saw one.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 25, 2023 16:22:09 GMT
Sidebar: without Texas the US has no real path for its OTL attack on Mexico in the 1840's Here is a brief illustration of the Mexican American War. Do you see how the Americans moved? The Duke of Wellington had something to say about this.Britain's greatest general knew a PEER or should I say "superior" when he saw one.
I can think of one or two who might have a stronger claim to the title than Wellington although it would be a matter of interpretation.
Yes the killing blow was by sea, which I suspect is what your referring to but what excuse for such an attack and for then annexing vast areas of Mexican territory would the US have with no land border with Mexico to organise a border dispute over.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jul 25, 2023 16:41:27 GMT
I can think of one or two who might have a stronger claim to the title than Wellington although it would be a matter of interpretation.
Yes the killing blow was by sea, which I suspect is what your referring to but what excuse for such an attack and for then annexing vast areas of Mexican territory would the US have with no land border with Mexico to organise a border dispute over.
You have four other generals I consider good: Montgomery, Slim, the Duke of Marlborough and Cromwell, but that is about it. NONE of them was that much better than Wellington, except Slim. I have referred to California as a causus belle for the Mexican War. You will notice the Fremont expedition? It was on its way BEFORE the Texas border incident. Polk was after it, came Hades or Hiram. Before we derail this thread, perhaps we should open a Mexican American War thread. I really have no interest in it yet, since I have three major threads going on more interesting subjects, but have at it, if you want.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 25, 2023 20:23:42 GMT
I can think of one or two who might have a stronger claim to the title than Wellington although it would be a matter of interpretation.
Yes the killing blow was by sea, which I suspect is what your referring to but what excuse for such an attack and for then annexing vast areas of Mexican territory would the US have with no land border with Mexico to organise a border dispute over.
You have four other generals I consider good: Montgomery, Slim, the Duke of Marlborough and Cromwell, but that is about it. NONE of them was that much better than Wellington, except Slim. I have referred to California as a causus belle for the Mexican War. You will notice the Fremont expedition? It was on its way BEFORE the Texas border incident. Polk was after it, came Hades or Hiram. Before we derail this thread, perhaps we should open a Mexican American War thread. I really have no interest in it yet, since I have three major threads going on more interesting subjects, but have at it, if you want.
I know hostility was planned before the formal war started. However the same factor applies. Without Louisiana you are going to have great difficulty reaching California. Especially if the Columbia/Oregon territory is resolved differently.
I know you think US military conquest is inevitable and correct but the evidence suggests otherwise.
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