stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 27, 2023 10:17:40 GMT
Pretty much. The story is often seen as a case of Wells seeking to highlight the excesses of colonialism around the world by western powers. Its a bit before the Boer's started the 2nd Boer war with their attack on the British Cape and Rhodesian colonies in 1899 but they might seek to advance that here given Britain's problems.
1897-1898 was the period when colonialism was about to reach its end. The Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico would revolt from Spain. Further out east, Japan was a rising power. Japan and the United States almost clashed in Hawaii, as the U.S. was slowly expanding into the Pacific. It's an interesting analogy to how the Martians are the European colonizers themselves.
That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jun 27, 2023 12:16:55 GMT
1897-1898 was the period when colonialism was about to reach its end. The Philippines, Cuba, and Puerto Rico would revolt from Spain. Further out east, Japan was a rising power. Japan and the United States almost clashed in Hawaii, as the U.S. was slowly expanding into the Pacific. It's an interesting analogy to how the Martians are the European colonizers themselves.
That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.
That is correct. In fact, during the Philippine-American War (1898-1901) 1,500 Americans were killed in action, while nearly twice that number succumbed to disease such as dengue and malaria. Americans soldiers faced the same conditions when they landed in Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes, tropical diseases killed more Americans than the bullets and bolos of the Filipinos. I'm guessing the British had the same dilemma in their African and Asian colonies as well.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 27, 2023 13:57:01 GMT
Just noticed on the most recent post on the site, for Sunday 27th
I'm crap at anagrams but even I get that one. Obviously at lead one Doctor fan in the people producing the story. Was thinking it as well, bit different name but both where created by Queen Victoria.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 27, 2023 14:31:10 GMT
That was basically the point of Well's story, although he did allow for disease as an escape clause, like in much of the tropic areas before medicine advanced enough to strip such areas of their protection.
That is correct. In fact, during the Philippine-American War (1898-1901) 1,500 Americans were killed in action, while nearly twice that number succumbed to disease such as dengue and malaria. Americans soldiers faced the same conditions when they landed in Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes, tropical diseases killed more Americans than the bullets and bolos of the Filipinos. I'm guessing the British had the same dilemma in their African and Asian colonies as well.
Even in European theatres up until at least WWI disease generally inflicted more casualties than fighting. Even with WWI you then had the great flu pandemic which killed more people around the world than the entire war. Again with the war against Japan, despite improved medication and knowledge, including the 1st antibiotics becoming available in decent amounts, more soldiers were taken from the front by disease than enemy action.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 27, 2023 15:07:05 GMT
So how long does it take to make a British Walker armed with a Heat Ray. Like this picture.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 27, 2023 20:46:09 GMT
Impossible to say as it would depend on the actual tech gulf between Earth and Mars and also how flexible the British scientists and their superiors are. Mind you even if we can't reverse engineer the tech other powers wouldn't need to know that.
Tirpitz - "I want to challenge the Royal Navy and build a bigger fleet than them" Wilhelm II - "Your being redeployed to a vital role managing the fleet on the China station.
I did wonder if, assuming we could get a heat ray working whether a walker would be the best deployment platform. It would be a lot more complex than the sort of motorised or even tracked vehicles being developed in civilian areas. On the other hand a heat ray is a direct fire weapon so unless small enough - including things like the power supply - to be deployed on a copied flying machine at least a large walker, albeit a big target itself, would have the height to extend its basic range.
Of course the big gains could be made in civilian as well as military areas with the potential for a lot of advances in many areas.
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spiegel
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Post by spiegel on Jun 28, 2023 4:52:47 GMT
I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 28, 2023 9:07:37 GMT
I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars. They just have to wait a couple of days and the win.
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spiegel
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Post by spiegel on Jun 28, 2023 9:28:52 GMT
I hope create War of the Worlds World War 2 alternate timeline what if Allies and Axis been team up against the aliens from Mars. They just have to wait a couple of days and the win. Well i can imagine that idea if possible battles on Europe American Mainland Africa and Asia seeing World War 2 armies duke it out against the Tripods been interesting.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 28, 2023 9:36:12 GMT
They just have to wait a couple of days and the win. Well i can imagine that idea if possible battles on Europe American Mainland Africa and Asia seeing World War 2 armies duke it out against the Tripods been interesting. Well we saw how well a modern army managed against the Martians in the 2005 Tom Cruise version, not so well.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 1, 2023 11:46:34 GMT
I have to say the post-script of political development in the UK after the invasion doesn't sound very realistic.
There were a number of issues here.
a) I doubt Lloyd George would become PM in 1900 as he was not the Liberal party leader until 1916 OTL and that was in a move that fatally split the party. He's likely to be markedly more prominent with his more radical agenda but not that early. Also the Liberals would have one handicap in that their committed to laissez faire policies - as opposed to the Unionist leader Joseph Chamberlain who was pushing for government action on social and economic problems. There was a reaction against the Tories OTL in 1906 but according to some sources that was largely based around a reaction to the growing influence of Chamberlain's idea.
Note I'm not saying that the government won't take a kicking in the election but not sure it would be as bad as suggested and highly unlikely Lloyd George would be Liberal leader that early. Its also unlikely they would stay in power unopposed for 22 years. I think that is the authors seeking to close back with OTL when the Tory dominated coalition removed Lloyd George as PM. It should also be noted that it made sense for the government to leave a London that was doomed to fall so that they could organise continued resistance and seek to maintain order in the rest of the country.
b) With a reforming government something like the OTL National Insurance Act is likely to come several years before OTL. Especially with the House of Lords constrained much earlier in its ability to block Commons bills.
c) Far from sure whether an Irish Free state would come into existence here. Your likely to have an Home Rule Bill passed at some point which will satisfy the majority of the Catholic population - especially with the Lords no longer able to block it. There will always be fanatics who will demand full independence and the subjection of Ulster but they will be in a small minority. Doubly so with social reforms dealing with a lot of social and economic problems.
d) Ditto that its far less likely here that the Liberals cease to be a major power without the OTL stresses of WWI and of the Lloyd-George- Asquith split.
e) I suspect female suffrage will come earlier but given the chaos and the opposition to it - even again with the Lords restrained - I suspect its probably more about 1905-06 sort of period. There's a hell of a lot of reconstruction that will probably take priority at least in the 1st term.
f) Not sure why George V is king in 1900-02 - not sure when the actual reference is? His father Edward VII took over when Victoria died so unless he was a casualty of the Martian invasion he should be king if Victoria died as OTL.
Its also noted that there is no mention of WWI here? Does it occur or not? Britain being weakened as it was could excite Germany to try even harder to supplant Britain as the primary naval power - or it could be deterred by the fear of Britain having Martian technology. There will still be a lot of international tensions. A common fear of a new invasion might prevent it but then once its clear why they were defeated that is likely to be seen as a trivial probability, especially by politicians and a lot of military leaders. Similarly do the Boers still attack the British colonies? That is probably fairly likely with Britain being weakened and distracted. If so would Lloyd George oppose the war against the Boers as OTL which made him deeply unpopular in much of Britain?
The TL for the invasion itself is interesting and shows some good ideas and insights but its going into some rather unlikely ideas in the post-war period.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 1, 2023 11:51:35 GMT
I have to say the post-script of political development in the UK after the invasion doesn't sound very realistic. I agree, a 22 year reign as PM is a lot.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 2, 2023 12:55:56 GMT
Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.
The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details. Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.
I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed. Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.
There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters. &
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 2, 2023 13:10:57 GMT
Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.
The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details. Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.
I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed. Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.
There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters. &
Have asked on SLP where the author is a member a question already regarding George V being king instead of his father.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 2, 2023 13:16:38 GMT
Their added a couple more sections. One on Toni and her future career as a doctor and the 1st female Health Secretary - with a reference to one of her colleagues becoming the 1st female MP.
The other although the title heading refers to female suffrage gives a fair amount of information about other details. Including that the Martians never returned and of a failed Martian landing on Venus - although how they know it failed other than assuming knowledge of OTL Venus which would have wiped them out quickly I don't know.
I very much doubt, if aerocraft were developed they wouldn't quickly be armed. Even if Hiram Maxim wouldn't do it then others will, both in Britain and elsewhere.
There's also small snippets on a couple of other characters. &
Have asked on SLP where the author is a member a question already regarding George V being king instead of his father.
Thanks. Would be interested to hear what he/she says - since there are multiple authors. [Unless its HGW communicating by seance! ]
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