mspence
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Post by mspence on May 11, 2023 7:03:40 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 11, 2023 13:33:44 GMT
It makes the allies more determined to continue the war. There might be some more sympathy for the emperor if they know that he had suggested surrender and it would be a useful potential propaganda tool against the extremists. However the war would continue until Japan surrenders. It would mean more fire attacks against Japanese population centres and nukes when available, increased starvation issues as food supplies are blocked, possibly even more Soviet encroachment although whether they could land in Hokkaidō would be questionable.
I suspect that the war won't last much longer. Japan is already at the end of its resources and once reports start leaking out that the military have actually opposed the emperor, who the population has been taught to view as an actual god things could come apart very quickly as well as very bloodily. More people will die in Japan, China and other areas but I can't see substantial Japanese opposition, most likely overseas lasting into 1946.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 11, 2023 14:07:45 GMT
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on May 28, 2023 14:28:05 GMT
God forbid, but without surrendering the two atomic bombings, Operation Downfall goes ahead. The third bomb would not be available until November 1945. Firebombings continue, the archipelago is blockaded, the blight would be spread to devastate Japan's agriculture, and there will be death traps everywhere the Americans will go to as they will face Japanese civilians armed with spears and gardening tools.
Whatever figures were estimated for the military and civilians deaths for Operation Downfall will probably be accurate.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 29, 2023 9:39:57 GMT
God forbid, but without surrendering the two atomic bombings, Operation Downfall goes ahead. The third bomb would not be available until November 1945. Firebombings continue, the archipelago is blockaded, the blight would be spread to devastate Japan's agriculture, and there will be death traps everywhere the Americans will go to as they will face Japanese civilians armed with spears and gardening tools. Whatever figures were estimated for the military and civilians deaths for Operation Downfall will probably be accurate.
Definitely a possibility. I have also read that the US was planning future nuclear attacks as tactical actions to 'clear' the landing beaches of fortifications and defenders. They didn't realise the impact of fall-out at the time so the invasion forces would have been landing on freshly nuked beaches which would have further increased casualties for all involved. 
Depending on what happens to the emperor and how long the bulk of the population continue to obey orders to resist things could continue to be very nasty for a prolonged period.  |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on May 29, 2023 17:29:52 GMT
God forbid, but without surrendering the two atomic bombings, Operation Downfall goes ahead. The third bomb would not be available until November 1945. Firebombings continue, the archipelago is blockaded, the blight would be spread to devastate Japan's agriculture, and there will be death traps everywhere the Americans will go to as they will face Japanese civilians armed with spears and gardening tools. Whatever figures were estimated for the military and civilians deaths for Operation Downfall will probably be accurate. Any source ? So far my literature label that USA had more Atom-bombs ready in Los Alamos A third nuke was deliver to San Fran on August 18, 1945 ready for shipping to pacific bomber fleet. Planned was production of twenty MK-III type atomic bombs before the end of 1945 Follow three in September, three in October and seven nukes in November and again seven in December. Next Hiroshima and Nagasaki were Niigata and Kokura on list with 17 other targets After Okinawa invasion, the US Army think twice for Operation Downfall also President Truman who went for dropping nukes. What face the putschists after they succeeded? the USA just continue dropping nukes and do carpet bombing it had not change much for them just that situation became worst in November and December 1945 with 14 nuclear attacks on Japan. most likely the putschists are victim themselve of putsch in order to end this War. and USA put more harsher condition to surrender |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on May 30, 2023 6:13:37 GMT
God forbid, but without surrendering the two atomic bombings, Operation Downfall goes ahead. The third bomb would not be available until November 1945. Firebombings continue, the archipelago is blockaded, the blight would be spread to devastate Japan's agriculture, and there will be death traps everywhere the Americans will go to as they will face Japanese civilians armed with spears and gardening tools. Whatever figures were estimated for the military and civilians deaths for Operation Downfall will probably be accurate.
Definitely a possibility. I have also read that the US was planning future nuclear attacks as tactical actions to 'clear' the landing beaches of fortifications and defenders. They didn't realise the impact of fall-out at the time so the invasion forces would have been landing on freshly nuked beaches which would have further increased casualties for all involved.
Depending on what happens to the emperor and how long the bulk of the population continue to obey orders to resist things could continue to be very nasty for a prolonged period. Nuclear fall out wasn't much understood yet until the 1950s. In essence, the Americans would have been fighting in an atomic wasteland with limited CRBN gear. The Japanese were getting desperate to the point civilians would be issued grenades to "take the enemy with them". Even sub-standard Arisaka rifles were being passed on. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 31, 2023 4:07:46 GMT
God forbid, but without surrendering the two atomic bombings, Operation Downfall goes ahead. The third bomb would not be available until November 1945. Firebombings continue, the archipelago is blockaded, the blight would be spread to devastate Japan's agriculture, and there will be death traps everywhere the Americans will go to as they will face Japanese civilians armed with spears and gardening tools. Whatever figures were estimated for the military and civilians deaths for Operation Downfall will probably be accurate. Definitely a possibility. I have also read that the US was planning future nuclear attacks as tactical actions to 'clear' the landing beaches of fortifications and defenders. They didn't realise the impact of fall-out at the time so the invasion forces would have been landing on freshly nuked beaches which would have further increased casualties for all involved. Depending on what happens to the emperor and how long the bulk of the population continue to obey orders to resist things could continue to be very nasty for a prolonged period. The Trinity shot was weather delayed, Steve, because the testers were afraid of particulate distribution by high winds and rain. |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on May 31, 2023 4:37:40 GMT
on Fallout matter
They knew there will be radioactive residues, but not complete understood circumstances.
Also you have understand that used MK-III bomb are relative "clean" if use in Air-detonation mode.
Ground detonation would produce allot Fallout ( what US could use on later bomb drops on Japan cities )
Later improved Nukes of 1950s to 1960s with booster and the early H-bombs produce far more toxic fallout
i just realised that if WW2 continue to December 1945 do Japan unwillingness to surrender.
Makes WW2 first Nuclear War and how will react Britain and USSR, on US continuation use of Nukes on their Enemies ?
and would make USA less hesitate in use of Atomic weapons in future conflicts like Korea War or Vietnam ?
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 31, 2023 5:04:09 GMT
but not complete understood circumstances. They were unaware of how it would contaminate the water table and get into the food chains, even with an air burst, but they had object lessons about ionizing radiation. The very selection of the test shot in a bowl valley surrounded by mountains showed a basic grasp of what they feared. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on May 31, 2023 8:39:35 GMT
but not complete understood circumstances. They were unaware of how it would contaminate the water table and get into the food chains, even with an air burst, but they had object lessons about ionizing radiation. The very selection of the test shot in a bowl valley surrounded by mountains showed a basic grasp of what they feared. Did scientists and military researchers also understand the effects of radiation poisoning or the cancers that will soon pop out after being exposed to it? |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 31, 2023 9:00:49 GMT
They were unaware of how it would contaminate the water table and get into the food chains, even with an air burst, but they had object lessons about ionizing radiation. The very selection of the test shot in a bowl valley surrounded by mountains showed a basic grasp of what they feared. Did scientists and military researchers also understand the effects of radiation poisoning or the cancers that will soon pop out after being exposed to it? Madame Curie was a precursor. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on May 31, 2023 13:16:07 GMT
Did scientists and military researchers also understand the effects of radiation poisoning or the cancers that will soon pop out after being exposed to it? Madame Curie was a precursor. But were troops taking part in Operation Downfall supposed to fight in an atomic hellscape? I read from many Operation Downfall scenarios that tactical nukes would be used to clear beachheads or cities. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on May 31, 2023 13:35:06 GMT
Madame Curie was a precursor. But were troops taking part in Operation Downfall supposed to fight in an atomic hellscape? I read from many Operation Downfall scenarios that tactical nukes would be used to clear beachheads or cities. How much of that "information" is accurate, I cannot say. I have seen op-plans for Kyushu, which had included plans to use an American copy of the V-1 cruise missile that was reverse engineered by the Ford Motor Company. These cruise missiles were to be supposedly launched from Okinawa with chemical payloads such as phosgene and mustard gas in massed volleys to fall upon the Japanese beach defenders in such fashion as to poison and incapacitate them to the point where 8th Army could get ashore and push inland against a reduced defense. It was supposedly a tradeoff of maybe 15,000 American "gas casualties" (incapacitated for the rest of their lives, but alive) against 45,000 dead. I think Truman vetoed it. Whether Truman would veto an even crazier atomic bomb proposal, I do not know. It is my opinion that he would employ city-killing and blockade rather than invasion, as eventually happened. Knowing what I know, I think the idea of exploding a surface burst at a shoreline is not only criminally insane ecologically, it would be militarily nonsensical. It would have to be a surface burst to destroy fortified positions. That means massive fall out and major, unpredictable topological changes to the landing site. It would self-defeat the landing attempts. |
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michelvan
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Post by michelvan on May 31, 2023 14:11:17 GMT
But were troops taking part in Operation Downfall supposed to fight in an atomic hellscape? I read from many Operation Downfall scenarios that tactical nukes would be used to clear beachheads or cities. There was some dispute on conduct Operation Downfall special in Capitol Hill, do expected high casualties under US forces. But also in Army since they experience of US occupation of Japan Okinawa islands. High US Losses, resistance of Japanese Military who fight to death, atrocity under Civilian etc. All this made operation Downfall less and less a option in 1945 This was reason why president Truman took nuclear option... I think with successful putsch, the US had continue to Nuke and Bomb japan during the winter 45/46 and look during Spring of 1946 whats left over from Japan after carpet bombing, 17 nuclear attacks with fallout and famine & epidemics... who ever is in charge in Japan now is willing to surrender at any condition... |
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