mspence
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Post by mspence on May 11, 2023 6:58:04 GMT
WI Sweden had been able to defeat Russia in the Great Northern War? what might a surviving Swedish Empire have looked like at least until the Napoleonic Wars?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 11, 2023 14:56:03 GMT
WI Sweden had been able to defeat Russia in the Great Northern War? what might a surviving Swedish Empire have looked like at least until the Napoleonic Wars?
It would have depended on a lot of events elsewhere but say a quick follow up to their victory at Narva had lead to the disposal of Peter as Czar and left Russia in a period of chaos then Charles could have defeated August of Saxony in Poland and possibly cowered both Saxony and Denmark from further war, or defeated them in later clashes. Doing this before the end of the War of the Spanish Succession could have meant Sweden is drawn into that, although what he would want from the allies for his intervention I don't know. [Since he seems to have been a pretty fanatical Protestant I can't see him joining on Louis XIV's side].
This all of course sets a lot of butterflies fluttering. A Russia isolated from the Baltic is either going to try and fight their way through at some later stage or turn south or most likely do both at different times. How successful Sweden would be at holding the Baltic-Finland barrier would depend on a wide range of factors although their likely to lose the Baltics at some stage unless Russia is seriously weakened long term. Even with its greater size Sweden is too small demographically and has too many potential foes to its east and south to stand against a decently strong Russia indefinitely.
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Post by diamondstorm on Jul 16, 2023 17:28:04 GMT
I can't speak for Europe but in North America, maybe Sweden picks up more Caribbean colonies in the long-term and New Sweden lasts somewhat longer than 1655? Would be interesting to explore a surviving Swedish North America.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 16, 2023 19:00:54 GMT
WI Sweden had been able to defeat Russia in the Great Northern War? what might a surviving Swedish Empire have looked like at least until the Napoleonic Wars?
Kicked. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 9, 2023 14:38:55 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 9, 2023 14:55:43 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join. Not answering your Question, but sombody once wtote what i posted in the thread here: What if: Sweden victory at Poltava (1709) about a surviving Swedish Empire. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2023 14:59:42 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join.
I'm not sure he wanted - or at least planned - anything other than the defence of his current territories until he had defeated the Russians and forced them to stop attacking.
After the victory at Narva he seems to have left them to recover, pursuing interests in Poland IIRC and of course having to fight the Danes as well. This proved to be fatal in the end as it gave time for Peter to recover and build up an even stronger army that conquered many areas and ravaged others - according to some reports sizeable sections of southern Finland for instance were depopulated with many killed or taken as slaves. Possibly because of the multiple enemies he was facing trying to finish off Peter as a threat wasn't an option but he needed to do something and the Russians were probably the most dangerous of his three initial foes given Peter's determination to establish at least a foothold on the Baltic and their massive resources once the pressure was off.
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575
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Post by 575 on Aug 15, 2023 14:48:42 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join. Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 15, 2023 22:03:30 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join. Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
Interesting thanks. Do you know whether this dates from ~1700 and the early Swedish victory or later when the Russians took the offensive again and Charles made his poorly managed invasion of the Ukrainian region that ended in disaster at Poltava in 1709? I suspect that this was too late as Peter had strengthened his position by then but could be wrong.
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575
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Post by 575 on Aug 16, 2023 7:26:02 GMT
Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
Interesting thanks. Do you know whether this dates from ~1700 and the early Swedish victory or later when the Russians took the offensive again and Charles made his poorly managed invasion of the Ukrainian region that ended in disaster at Poltava in 1709? I suspect that this was too late as Peter had strengthened his position by then but could be wrong.
The information was regarding 1707 just prior to the invasion of Russia/Ukraine but it was also expressed during the earlier phase in Poland. Apparently the Ottomans had promised to participate without specifying how. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 16, 2023 22:14:00 GMT
Does anyone know what Charles XII actually wanted from Russia? They had Finland, Livland, and Ingermanland already. Defending the status quo wouldn't pay enough, so to speak. The Ottomans may also get some share, if they join. Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
? Sheer unbelievable. I guess that maps weren't totally exact at that time, but still. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Aug 17, 2023 7:05:52 GMT
Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
? Sheer unbelievable. I guess that maps weren't totally exact at that time, but still. On the contrary - Charles had to go south because of the scorched earth policy employed by the Russians to feed his Army - the writer a Military Historian thought that Charles was out too late giving Peter time to mobilize new Armies. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 17, 2023 14:40:49 GMT
Found a Swedish webpage - in Swedish:
He wanted to depose the Tsar Peter by occupying Moscow and make the Bojars resume Russian rule. Charles recruited Hetman Mazepa but he would only supply some 4,000 troops and the Ottomans wasn't to commit themselves to war. No Territorial gains apparently.
? Sheer unbelievable. I guess that maps weren't totally exact at that time, but still.
Not really. Charles had smashed the Russians at Narva in 1700 and Peter was unpopular with more conservative elements and also the boyars because of his reforms and centralizing desires so if Charles had followed that up with an early march on Moscow, coupled with some decent diplomacy I think there's a decent chance that another defeat for Peter there might fatally undermine his position and see him deposed. Or at least start a civil war that could keep Russia off his back while he dealt with Saxony and Denmark, the other powers that attacked his empire. However he didn't realise that Peter and Russia were the primary threat. Plus he seems to have been something of a religious fanatic thinking he was divinely inspired which didn't help his judgement. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 17, 2023 14:41:35 GMT
Interesting thanks. Do you know whether this dates from ~1700 and the early Swedish victory or later when the Russians took the offensive again and Charles made his poorly managed invasion of the Ukrainian region that ended in disaster at Poltava in 1709? I suspect that this was too late as Peter had strengthened his position by then but could be wrong.
The information was regarding 1707 just prior to the invasion of Russia/Ukraine but it was also expressed during the earlier phase in Poland. Apparently the Ottomans had promised to participate without specifying how.
OK thanks.
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Post by Max Sinister on Aug 19, 2023 19:02:54 GMT
Moscow? Sheer unbelievable. I guess that maps weren't totally exact at that time, but still.
Not really. Charles had smashed the Russians at Narva in 1700 and Peter was unpopular with more conservative elements and also the boyars because of his reforms and centralizing desires so if Charles had followed that up with an early march on Moscow, coupled with some decent diplomacy I think there's a decent chance that another defeat for Peter there might fatally undermine his position and see him deposed. Or at least start a civil war that could keep Russia off his back while he dealt with Saxony and Denmark, the other powers that attacked his empire. However he didn't realise that Peter and Russia were the primary threat. Plus he seems to have been something of a religious fanatic thinking he was divinely inspired which didn't help his judgement. Russia as the primary threat - want to start a TL where he deals with them first, having started with Narva already? But what would Denmark (which still owned the South of Sweden) and Saxony-Poland (which bordered Livland) do meanwhile?
And about being a "religious fanatic" - did he want to convert half of Europe to Protestantism? I've got the feeling he's at least one century late for that.
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