stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 11, 2023 11:50:47 GMT
Sounds like its going to be a bad day for the Austrian army.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 11, 2023 12:10:05 GMT
Sounds like its going to be a bad day for the Austrian army. Really wanted it to be a quick defeat by "Heavenly forces" but history and weather wants otherwise. At least the Austrians will know not to offend Denmark's!
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 11, 2023 12:11:17 GMT
Sounds like its going to be a bad day for the Austrian army. Really wanted it to be a quick defeat by "Heavenly forces" but history and weather wants otherwise. At least the Austrians will know not to offend Denmark's! This might result in Austria never to go on a Prussian adventure again.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 11, 2023 12:16:02 GMT
Really wanted it to be a quick defeat by "Heavenly forces" but history and weather wants otherwise. At least the Austrians will know not to offend Denmark's! This might result in Austria never to go on a Prussian adventure again. Perhaps but I'd also like Prussia to be clubbed down as that is the main obstacle. Austria just have to retreat back into European businessess staying out of the freezing North. Let the Barbarians kill each other. Its a long haul; so far written 46 pages and reached 7 February 1864.. still have a lot to write.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 11, 2023 12:19:12 GMT
This might result in Austria never to go on a Prussian adventure again. Perhaps but I'd also like Prussia to be clubbed down as that is the main obstacle. Austria just have to retreat back into European businessess staying out of the freezing North. Let the Barbarians kill each other. Its a long haul; so far written 46 pages and reached 7 February 1864.. still have a lot to write.
Well if Prussia losses the Second Schleswig War which i think is going to happen, it will hurt Bismarck, so a major butterfly might be that there is no Austro-Prussian War of 1866.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 11, 2023 15:03:51 GMT
Copenhagen Ministry of War 9PM 10 April 1940/ 2 February 1864 General Prior looked at the map. The Prussians had 1864 paused for several days actually to the 6 February to be able to let 1. Corps cross the Slie Fiord by boat and bridge as the Austrians kept up pressure on the Dannevirke Position to fix the Danish defenders. Did he dare let the Prussians sit there collecting boats and building rafts? The weather today had been bad for flying and it would be worse tomorrow. He needed his Aircraft to harass the Prussians and wear them down but he also needed a force in the back of the Prussian Corps to force it to surrender hence his orders to General Essemann of moving the Jutish Dragoons forward to bar retreat into Hütterne Berge. Didn't want a Corps sitting in the very defensive terrain having to force it out. The Prussians and Austrians at Schleswig numbered some 35,000 with 64 Guns and another 32 Guns in the Austrian reserve. The Prussian Guards hadn't made much of themselves at Schleswig. De Meza had some 38,000 troops and 104 Field Guns at Schleswig but almost 10,000 troops of 1. Division and 16 Fields Guns guarded the Slie Fiord against the Prussians trying to force it. Of his 43,000 almost half was already in the area with Army Forces South Jutland and Jutland Division moving into area having another 27 Infantry Guns, 36 Light Artillery and 12 Heavy. Sufficient for settling the matter at Schleswig but the 1. Prussian Corps gnawed at him; 36,000 troops which had started the day with 64 guns but had lost at least 15. The 3. Artillery Battery had been effective and lucky – damned lucky.
The Navy had to get drawn into operations. The Vice-Admiral was slippery as soap when it came to agreeing to Operations but he needed something on the Slie Fiord that was rapidly thawing to keep the Prussians on the south side. The old Torpedoboats would be fine to block the Slie Fiord even if they be sitting ducks. He also wanted some Heavy Artillery to be able to bear on the Prussians should they try to break out south at Eckernförde something like Niels Juel. He wanted the Sjaelland Division to get moving to move its troops to Lolland for the short ferrying to Eckernförde. He needed to talk to the Minister of Defence though if that still be Alsing-Andersen there would be little effect of it; better try have the ear of the Primeminister. Prior called the Primeministers Office – the PM was in a meeting. An hour later the PM was still in a meeting and it was only past midnight that General Prior managed to get through to the PM.
Stauning: ”It has been along day but let me hear it General.”
General Prior: ”Primeminister I need to have more activity from the Navy – right now we have a Prussian Corps of 36,000 sitting south of the Slie Fiord in Svansen (Peninsular south of Slie Fiord) collecting boats for a crossing; we must prevent that and transport Troops from Sjaelland to Slesvig soon to be able to do so. I am not getting the cooperation I need from the Vice-Admiral.”
Stauning: ”You should talk to the Minister of Defence on such matters.”
General Prior: ”Yes, but..”
Stauning: ”Come on General be blunt – You think the Minister of Defence is not taking You seriously.”
General Prior: ”Well, I wouldn't phrase it that way but..”
Stauning: ”General I really think You ought to go through the right channel. By the way You have a new Minister – Alsing-Andersen have left the Ministry of Defence for Public Works – the new Minister of Defence is Christmas Møller. Yes, we had a reorganization of Government this evening making a National Unity Goverment. Think You should call Your new Minister.”
General Prior: ”Oh I see, yes of course – thank You Primeminister.”
General Prior went into the corridor and could see light in the Ministers office. Giving a knock on the door Prior went inside closing the door behind him.
Christmas Møller Minister of Defence: ”Ah there You are General – good to see You. Seems we had some more losses today than expected; tough soldiers the Prussians.”
General Prior: ”Indeed tough soldiers and now we have a full Prussian Corps sitting south of the Slie Fiord collecting boats for the crossing and a battle tomorrow with the Austrian Corps.”
Christmas Møller MoD: ”So we need to neutralize both but can't do so at one time.”
General Prior: ”Exactly. I would require some support from the Navy on the matter – the Slie is a fiord and some of the old Torpedoboats might operate there; maybe some heavier units to intercept a retreat at Eckernförde or bombard the Prussian Corps in situ.”
Christmas Møller MoD: ”I get Your point – we don't have the troops to do everything at once and need to get the most of what we have; right?”
General Prior: ”Right; however the Vice-Admiral have been somewhat not exactly dedicated to the matter..”
Christmas Møller MoD: ”General I understand – I did do Officer training at the Navy years ago and I already understand that some of the Navy Senior Officers are a little shall we say not too satisfied with the tempo of the Navy these days. Captain Evers at the Lillebaelt Barrage have already asked for orders as have Captain Ipsen Commander Coastal Defence and Copenhagen Base, Rear-Admiral Hammerich Chief of Navy Staff and Rear-Admiral Briand de Crevecoeur Commander Coastal Fleet. I can't not listen to these men at this hour. We need to act and to do so decisively. General forward Your requirements to the Chief of Navy Staff who will look into it and give You an answer as to the possible. I think the Rear-Admiral is at his office.”
General Prior: ”Thank You Minister – I'll have the head of the Second Office draw up a Table of Organisation and Equipment and present temporary Commands in Jutland for You. Will be on Your desk tomorrow at 9 AM.”
Christmas Møller MoD: ”Thank You General spares me asking for it. Now if You will excuse me seems I have a War to run.”
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Mar 11, 2023 15:14:28 GMT
The Navy had to get drawn into operations. The Vice-Admiral was slippery as soap when it came to agreeing to Operations but he needed something on the Slie Fiord that was rapidly thawing to keep the Prussians on the south side. Seems work has to be done on joint naval and army operations.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 12, 2023 9:12:23 GMT
Orders to Sjælland Division 10 April 1940 To: Majorgeneral H.A. Rolsted Commander Sjælland Division
Following Mobilization of the 5 Classes You will move the 4. and 5. Regiment to Nakskov for immediate readying for transfer by boat to Eckernförde, Slesvig. 1. and 2. Artillery Regiment will also move to Nakskov; 2. Artillery Regiment readying for transfer by boat to Eckernförde. Guards Regiment will cover the Capital and Sjælland; plan at Your discretion. Engineers to move to Nakskov. 2. Squadron Army Airtroops ordered to Nakskov Airfield for operations over Slesvig.
Imperative to keep up momentum.
Opposing forces in Svans area, east Slesvig, 1. Prussian Corps. Hostilities initiated at Mysunde.
Transportation to Nakskov requisitioned at DSB (Danish State Railways)
Notification: Col. Bennike, 4. Regiment Col. Harrel, 5. Regiment Col. C.D.O Lunn, 2. Artillery Regiment
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 12, 2023 9:46:39 GMT
Schleswig General de Meza's HQ 2 February 1864 General Essemann and his Artillery Commander entered the door of Gottorp Castle to the west of Schleswig city where de Meza had his HQ. Essemann was greeted by Colonel Harz and General de Meza; de Meza began ordering Essemann about the situation and his plan for the next days. Essemann just looked at de Meza and then told him that he and his Command was here to aid de Meza in his defence of Dannevirke ramparts and outer works. He knew the capabilities of his command and its weapons which de Meza didn't and as such was in no position to order Jutland Division around. De Meza said he outranked Essemann who replied that he knew what necessary decisions hadn't been made on 3 February 1864 and he was rectifying that by ordering HIS troops to positions AND formulating their orders. If de Meza had any problems with this state of affairs he would be welcome to ask Premier Stauning at Copenhagen.
Then Essemann and the rest of the 1940 Officers saluted de Meza and left Gottorp Castle.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 12, 2023 12:39:54 GMT
The Navy had to get drawn into operations. The Vice-Admiral was slippery as soap when it came to agreeing to Operations but he needed something on the Slie Fiord that was rapidly thawing to keep the Prussians on the south side. Seems work has to be done on joint naval and army operations.
That tends to be a problem with different services. Although here it sounds largely like one high ranking commander being reluctant to get involved, with some of his subordinates being far more eager to help out.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 12, 2023 12:44:09 GMT
Perhaps but I'd also like Prussia to be clubbed down as that is the main obstacle. Austria just have to retreat back into European businessess staying out of the freezing North. Let the Barbarians kill each other. Its a long haul; so far written 46 pages and reached 7 February 1864.. still have a lot to write.
Well if Prussia losses the Second Schleswig War which i think is going to happen, it will hurt Bismarck, so a major butterfly might be that there is no Austro-Prussian War of 1866.
Even if Bismarck goes I suspect it might be in Denmark's interests to pass on some information to Vienna about future events and also some advice. As 575, Prussia is the primary threat while Austria seems fairly happy ignoring the 'frozen north' if it can. Of course whether the Austrians actually listen and do something intelligent rather than bloody stupid could be another matter. Not to mention one effect of the defeat in 1866 was it prompted the unrest in Hungary that made it a 'dual' monarchy which given the domination of Hungary by a deeply reactionary aristocracy and further handicapped any Hapsburg attempt at lasting reform.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 12, 2023 12:46:33 GMT
Seems work has to be done on joint naval and army operations.
That tends to be a problem with different services. Although here it sounds largely like one high ranking commander being reluctant to get involved, with some of his subordinates being far more eager to help out.
Exactly the OTL situation - a month following the Occupation Vice-Admiral Rechnitzer was asked by the four senior officers of the Navy to resign. I felt this would apply to this situation too.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 12, 2023 12:46:57 GMT
Schleswig General de Meza's HQ 2 February 1864 General Essemann and his Artillery Commander entered the door of Gottorp Castle to the west of Schleswig city where de Meza had his HQ. Essemann was greeted by Colonel Harz and General de Meza; de Meza began ordering Essemann about the situation and his plan for the next days. Essemann just looked at de Meza and then told him that he and his Command was here to aid de Meza in his defence of Dannevirke ramparts and outer works. He knew the capabilities of his command and its weapons which de Meza didn't and as such was in no position to order Jutland Division around. De Meza said he outranked Essemann who replied that he knew what necessary decisions hadn't been made on 3 February 1864 and he was rectifying that by ordering HIS troops to positions AND formulating their orders. If de Meza had any problems with this state of affairs he would be welcome to ask Premier Stauning at Copenhagen. Then Essemann and the rest of the 1940 Officers saluted de Meza and left Gottorp Castle.
That could cause some tensions and issues, especially given the way Essemann replied. That at least implies serious failures on De Meza's part which whether justified or not is likely to put his back up. Especially since Essemann of course has much better knowledge of events. However definitely important that Essemann moves to counter what he knows is coming.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 12, 2023 12:53:05 GMT
Well if Prussia losses the Second Schleswig War which i think is going to happen, it will hurt Bismarck, so a major butterfly might be that there is no Austro-Prussian War of 1866.
Even if Bismarck goes I suspect it might be in Denmark's interests to pass on some information to Vienna about future events and also some advice. As 575 , Prussia is the primary threat while Austria seems fairly happy ignoring the 'frozen north' if it can. Of course whether the Austrians actually listen and do something intelligent rather than bloody stupid could be another matter. Not to mention one effect of the defeat in 1866 was it prompted the unrest in Hungary that made it a 'dual' monarchy which given the domination of Hungary by a deeply reactionary aristocracy and further handicapped any Hapsburg attempt at lasting reform. Stevep;
Do share that wiev though to make this a "serious" TL I have a lot of politics to cover; hence why Foreign Min. P. Munch the Dr. Phil. History have to gone to address the Diet and more so its Austrian President.
With a serious defeat against Denmark I expect Bismarck to have very little political future within Prussia; perhaps some "interesting" Ambassadorial post could be dug up - far away from Europe - if thats even possible as the civilized World IS Europe..
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 12, 2023 13:01:08 GMT
Schleswig General de Meza's HQ 2 February 1864 General Essemann and his Artillery Commander entered the door of Gottorp Castle to the west of Schleswig city where de Meza had his HQ. Essemann was greeted by Colonel Harz and General de Meza; de Meza began ordering Essemann about the situation and his plan for the next days. Essemann just looked at de Meza and then told him that he and his Command was here to aid de Meza in his defence of Dannevirke ramparts and outer works. He knew the capabilities of his command and its weapons which de Meza didn't and as such was in no position to order Jutland Division around. De Meza said he outranked Essemann who replied that he knew what necessary decisions hadn't been made on 3 February 1864 and he was rectifying that by ordering HIS troops to positions AND formulating their orders. If de Meza had any problems with this state of affairs he would be welcome to ask Premier Stauning at Copenhagen. Then Essemann and the rest of the 1940 Officers saluted de Meza and left Gottorp Castle.
That could cause some tensions and issues, especially given the way Essemann replied. That at least implies serious failures on De Meza's part which whether justified or not is likely to put his back up. Especially since Essemann of course has much better knowledge of events. However definitely important that Essemann moves to counter what he knows is coming.
I think it would be the only way; de Meza had been appointed Commander of the 1864 Field Army. He was a notorious difficult man due to exentricity but a very good Commander who realized the only way out for the Danish Army 1864 - retreat from Dannevirke. He was also very aloof regarding his Divisional Commanders so could very well adopt this stance of seniority - which of course would be ripped away if he ask Government. That aloofness played out in his not giving explicit orders for 3. February 1864 perhaps resulting in the defeat at the hills forward of the Dannevirke Rampart. Commanders was uncertain of whats to do - no orders of reconnaisance of enemy positions issued which left to inactivity from stand-to at 6AM till somebody decided it be time to do something around 10-11 AM at which time the Austrians were moving ahead overrunning effectively the shift of Danish Pickets. That is the intent to rectify by General Essemann. When encountering serious obstacles de Meza had a habit of withdrawing into himself being unavailable to his Divisional Commanders!
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