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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 4, 2024 4:57:21 GMT
Challenge: a successful Irish invasion of England around 1066 AD, replacing the Norman invasion.
Well that would probably need the Vikings remaining the military/politically dominant force in Ireland and uniting it more successfully. However their unlikely to have much interest other than the north of England and attempts to move south would be difficult for them without a Norman threat.
Didn't Ivar the Boneless establish some sort of a Viking entity within Ireland at one point? Going back to the PoD scenario around a worse 1889-90 Russian flu pandemic, Cixi herself could have easily died from the 1889-90 flu, though I noticed that the Russian flu pandemic mostly struck the West. Killing off Cixi from that virus also allows Emperor Guangxu to continue with the reforms, but the events of that pandemic would mean that the First Sino-Japanese War would either be triggered early, or it won't happen at all, if Japan was distracted by the Spanish turmoil caused by an earlier death of Alfonso XIII. Perhaps with Japan buying the Philippines from Spain, it would be too busy to try to administer their new colony to get involved in Chinese and Korean affairs. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 4, 2024 13:56:52 GMT
Well that would probably need the Vikings remaining the military/politically dominant force in Ireland and uniting it more successfully. However their unlikely to have much interest other than the north of England and attempts to move south would be difficult for them without a Norman threat.
Didn't Ivar the Boneless establish some sort of a Viking entity within Ireland at one point? Going back to the PoD scenario around a worse 1889-90 Russian flu pandemic, Cixi herself could have easily died from the 1889-90 flu, though I noticed that the Russian flu pandemic mostly struck the West. Killing off Cixi from that virus also allows Emperor Guangxu to continue with the reforms, but the events of that pandemic would mean that the First Sino-Japanese War would either be triggered early, or it won't happen at all, if Japan was distracted by the Spanish turmoil caused by an earlier death of Alfonso XIII. Perhaps with Japan buying the Philippines from Spain, it would be too busy to try to administer their new colony to get involved in Chinese and Korean affairs. The vikings were powerful in Ireland for at least a couple of centuries and during the period of Eric Bloodaxe powerful rulers from Ireland contested the north of England with the Anglo-Saxon monarchy. However OTL Viking power seems to have had been broken by an Irish revival in the 9thC, although regional Viking forces were still important. It could be that a powerful Viking leader manages to cement enough of Ireland so they could make such a challenge for northern England at least.
The problem with that scenario is that depending on the timing such an invasion could well clash with Harald Hadradra's invasion and it would actually be easier, even if those two didn't clash for King Harold to face two armies both in the north, rather than having to march north, defeat Harald and then have to force march south again upon getting news of William of Normandy's landing. It might be a more interesting scenario if this Irish invasion replaced Harald's Norwegians rather than William's French.
On the other scenario I would say that the Russian flu pandemic is probably too late to kill off Cixi and get reform fast enough to save the Qing dynasty. With her removed there's more chance of Emperor Guangxu being able to push reform but there are still substantial opponents to reform and the empire has seen a hell of a lot of decline since ~1860. You could see it avoid some of the worse problems of the 1900-1950 period but its still going to be markedly weaker for a while so only to be achieving something like super-power status by ~1950/60 and a fair amount could still go wrong. Getting reforms started ~1862 would be a better option I think.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 5, 2024 1:19:19 GMT
The vikings were powerful in Ireland for at least a couple of centuries and during the period of Eric Bloodaxe powerful rulers from Ireland contested the north of England with the Anglo-Saxon monarchy. However OTL Viking power seems to have had been broken by an Irish revival in the 9thC, although regional Viking forces were still important. It could be that a powerful Viking leader manages to cement enough of Ireland so they could make such a challenge for northern England at least.
The problem with that scenario is that depending on the timing such an invasion could well clash with Harald Hadradra's invasion and it would actually be easier, even if those two didn't clash for King Harold to face two armies both in the north, rather than having to march north, defeat Harald and then have to force march south again upon getting news of William of Normandy's landing. It might be a more interesting scenario if this Irish invasion replaced Harald's Norwegians rather than William's French. A Hiberno-Norse entity arising in Ireland might be an interesting scenario, especially if they could combine both Norse and Gaelic traditions together. I also heard a rumor that some of the population of Iceland might have Celtic roots, but I don't know if it's true or not. You'd also need this Hiberno-Norse entity to secure Scotland first before going for England. However, there's also the Welsh entity as well, since they might also want to take their aim at conquering bits of English territory. It would be a historical irony if the Hiberno-Norse, or basically Nordicized Irish that is, ends up becoming the overlords of England. On the other scenario I would say that the Russian flu pandemic is probably too late to kill off Cixi and get reform fast enough to save the Qing dynasty. With her removed there's more chance of Emperor Guangxu being able to push reform but there are still substantial opponents to reform and the empire has seen a hell of a lot of decline since ~1860. You could see it avoid some of the worse problems of the 1900-1950 period but its still going to be markedly weaker for a while so only to be achieving something like super-power status by ~1950/60 and a fair amount could still go wrong. Getting reforms started ~1862 would be a better option I think. Agreed, but wouldn't older people be more vulnerable to pandemic related sicknesses? Given that Cixi may only be 50 or more years old already, I don't know if there is a kind of hereditary disease that exists within the Qing royal family. There is also one other kind of scenario that may be butterflied away from the 1889-90 Russian flu pandemic, and that may be that the incidents that occurred between Han Chinese and Mongols that led to the Jindandao Incident (which was basically one of the few ethnic conflicts within the Qing Dynasty that involved genocide), which in turn triggered the path towards Mongolian independence. Preventing that incident by coming to a rapprochement between Russia and China would allow the demarcation of borders, as well as trade agreements that may be better than nothing, but the main problem in this case is that Russia still has this Yellow Peril scare. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2024 13:00:08 GMT
The vikings were powerful in Ireland for at least a couple of centuries and during the period of Eric Bloodaxe powerful rulers from Ireland contested the north of England with the Anglo-Saxon monarchy. However OTL Viking power seems to have had been broken by an Irish revival in the 9thC, although regional Viking forces were still important. It could be that a powerful Viking leader manages to cement enough of Ireland so they could make such a challenge for northern England at least.
The problem with that scenario is that depending on the timing such an invasion could well clash with Harald Hadradra's invasion and it would actually be easier, even if those two didn't clash for King Harold to face two armies both in the north, rather than having to march north, defeat Harald and then have to force march south again upon getting news of William of Normandy's landing. It might be a more interesting scenario if this Irish invasion replaced Harald's Norwegians rather than William's French. A Hiberno-Norse entity arising in Ireland might be an interesting scenario, especially if they could combine both Norse and Gaelic traditions together. I also heard a rumor that some of the population of Iceland might have Celtic roots, but I don't know if it's true or not. You'd also need this Hiberno-Norse entity to secure Scotland first before going for England. However, there's also the Welsh entity as well, since they might also want to take their aim at conquering bits of English territory. It would be a historical irony if the Hiberno-Norse, or basically Nordicized Irish that is, ends up becoming the overlords of England. On the other scenario I would say that the Russian flu pandemic is probably too late to kill off Cixi and get reform fast enough to save the Qing dynasty. With her removed there's more chance of Emperor Guangxu being able to push reform but there are still substantial opponents to reform and the empire has seen a hell of a lot of decline since ~1860. You could see it avoid some of the worse problems of the 1900-1950 period but its still going to be markedly weaker for a while so only to be achieving something like super-power status by ~1950/60 and a fair amount could still go wrong. Getting reforms started ~1862 would be a better option I think. Agreed, but wouldn't older people be more vulnerable to pandemic related sicknesses? Given that Cixi may only be 50 or more years old already, I don't know if there is a kind of hereditary disease that exists within the Qing royal family. There is also one other kind of scenario that may be butterflied away from the 1889-90 Russian flu pandemic, and that may be that the incidents that occurred between Han Chinese and Mongols that led to the Jindandao Incident (which was basically one of the few ethnic conflicts within the Qing Dynasty that involved genocide), which in turn triggered the path towards Mongolian independence. Preventing that incident by coming to a rapprochement between Russia and China would allow the demarcation of borders, as well as trade agreements that may be better than nothing, but the main problem in this case is that Russia still has this Yellow Peril scare.
On Iceland I think there are suggestions that it was discovered by Irish monks and that some had settled there but that was largely a small population of hermits using it for its isolation. As such I suspect the Irish population was minimal although you probably had some Irish slaves imported in following years, along with others from Scotland, England, Wales etc.
My point with ~1890 as a death date for Cixi is that I think its too late unless she is drastically different as she was an arch conservative and opposed changes and reforms that might have helped China avoid at least some of the disasters post the 1861 PoD and become a great power earlier.
Russia was the primary western threat to the Chinese heartlands simply because of having a common land border and a history of overland colonization. All the western powers I believe had some element of the 'yellow peril' concern, whether military or as in the case in places like the US, Canada and Australia in terms of Chinese migrants. This isn't going to go away and if China actually defeats a western power in a military clash - say its the Sino-Russian war rather than a Russo-Japanese one - that's likely to make matters worse but it would be necessary at some point for the desired development of China. Tension with France might come next given French encroachment on what China saw as its sphere of influence in Indo-China and then Britain and the US over trading rights and the like.
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575
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Post by 575 on Mar 5, 2024 16:27:11 GMT
The vikings were powerful in Ireland for at least a couple of centuries and during the period of Eric Bloodaxe powerful rulers from Ireland contested the north of England with the Anglo-Saxon monarchy. However OTL Viking power seems to have had been broken by an Irish revival in the 9thC, although regional Viking forces were still important. It could be that a powerful Viking leader manages to cement enough of Ireland so they could make such a challenge for northern England at least.
The problem with that scenario is that depending on the timing such an invasion could well clash with Harald Hadradra's invasion and it would actually be easier, even if those two didn't clash for King Harold to face two armies both in the north, rather than having to march north, defeat Harald and then have to force march south again upon getting news of William of Normandy's landing. It might be a more interesting scenario if this Irish invasion replaced Harald's Norwegians rather than William's French. A Hiberno-Norse entity arising in Ireland might be an interesting scenario, especially if they could combine both Norse and Gaelic traditions together. I also heard a rumor that some of the population of Iceland might have Celtic roots, but I don't know if it's true or not. You'd also need this Hiberno-Norse entity to secure Scotland first before going for England. However, there's also the Welsh entity as well, since they might also want to take their aim at conquering bits of English territory. It would be a historical irony if the Hiberno-Norse, or basically Nordicized Irish that is, ends up becoming the overlords of England. At least the female population of Iceland and Faeroe Islands was Celtic according to DNA-test's. The theory is that Vikings during their stopover in Scotland and Ireland found local viwes who accompagnied them into the North Atlantic. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 5, 2024 23:31:33 GMT
A Hiberno-Norse entity arising in Ireland might be an interesting scenario, especially if they could combine both Norse and Gaelic traditions together. I also heard a rumor that some of the population of Iceland might have Celtic roots, but I don't know if it's true or not. You'd also need this Hiberno-Norse entity to secure Scotland first before going for England. However, there's also the Welsh entity as well, since they might also want to take their aim at conquering bits of English territory. It would be a historical irony if the Hiberno-Norse, or basically Nordicized Irish that is, ends up becoming the overlords of England. At least the female population of Iceland and Faeroe Islands was Celtic according to DNA-test's. The theory is that Vikings during their stopover in Scotland and Ireland found local viwes who accompagnied them into the North Atlantic.
Interesting thanks. I didn't know that. Hopefully at least some of the wives were voluntary. It may be that especially in the early decades it was easier to obtain women from Scotland and Ireland than from a more distant Norway.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 6, 2024 12:08:21 GMT
AHC: Germanic "Russia"
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 7, 2024 3:24:14 GMT
Are we talking about Germanic tribes forming a super state? You could have a scenario where some random Germanic tribe ends up ruling over a large population of Balts and Finno-Ugric peoples. Before even Kyivan Rus came to existence, there were a lot of Finno-Ugric tribes living in the area around OTL Moscow and east of it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 7, 2024 16:16:46 GMT
One possibility is have the Goths evolve into a more organised state with possibly a cavalry elite/feudal aristocracy that somehow manages to hold out against repeated waves of steppe nomads coming from the east. Possibly with some groups staying more infantry oriented as they move north into the forests, possibly to escape domination of the new aristocrats. That would give a German speaking population - or at least elite - in both the plains of the Ukraine type area and also at least some of the more northerly areas.
Its not going to be easy, especially with large and powerful hordes comparable to the Huns and the Mongols - although in the latter case a period of conquest if in the same time period could be too late to change the fundamental Germanic nature of the region.
It might also depends on what happens to Germans further west. At least that will affect things considerably. Is there still a Roman collapse and a move westwards of German tribes other than the Goths, in which case the Slavic peoples might still emerge. If not the Germans may be dominate in central and eastern parts of northern Europe west of 'Russia' and depending on how much the various cultures diverge you could end up having a potentially massive Germanic state/empire.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Mar 7, 2024 18:11:44 GMT
AHC/WI: Majority Buddhist India by 500 AD or earlier.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 10, 2024 3:34:46 GMT
AHC/WI: Majority Buddhist India by 500 AD or earlier. It actually used to be majority Buddhist, so we'd have to ask for the reasons it declined. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much written history from that time there. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 10, 2024 18:35:58 GMT
AHC/WI: Majority Buddhist India by 500 AD or earlier. It actually used to be majority Buddhist, so we'd have to ask for the reasons it declined. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much written history from that time there.
Was it actually majority Buddhist or was Buddhism politically dominant among the rulers and Hinduism staying the most popular faith among the ordinary population? Not saying that was the case but just wondering given how quickly both Buddhism and Jainism which was fairly popular at the same time were fairly quickly supplanted by a revived Hinduism politically.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 10, 2024 22:22:50 GMT
It actually used to be majority Buddhist, so we'd have to ask for the reasons it declined. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be much written history from that time there.
Was it actually majority Buddhist or was Buddhism politically dominant among the rulers and Hinduism staying the most popular faith among the ordinary population? Not saying that was the case but just wondering given how quickly both Buddhism and Jainism which was fairly popular at the same time were fairly quickly supplanted by a revived Hinduism politically.
From the top of my head, I'm quite sure it was the whole population, not just the elites. Which begs the question: If Hinduism shrunk to a small minority during this time, how did they reconstruct their caste system? Buddhism didn't use castes and didn't condemn people from mixed-caste relationships.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 10, 2024 23:33:24 GMT
Was it actually majority Buddhist or was Buddhism politically dominant among the rulers and Hinduism staying the most popular faith among the ordinary population? Not saying that was the case but just wondering given how quickly both Buddhism and Jainism which was fairly popular at the same time were fairly quickly supplanted by a revived Hinduism politically.
From the top of my head, I'm quite sure it was the whole population, not just the elites. Which begs the question: If Hinduism shrunk to a small minority during this time, how did they reconstruct their caste system? Buddhism didn't use castes and didn't condemn people from mixed-caste relationships.
Very good point. That's partly why I had suspected it was primarily the elite who converted to Buddhism. Plus given the handicaps on the bulk of the population under Hinduism, including those deemed as non-Ayran it would be expected there would be a lot of resistance to Hinduism being restored as the dominant religion.
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Post by Max Sinister on Mar 11, 2024 1:12:32 GMT
From the top of my head, I'm quite sure it was the whole population, not just the elites. Which begs the question: If Hinduism shrunk to a small minority during this time, how did they reconstruct their caste system? Buddhism didn't use castes and didn't condemn people from mixed-caste relationships.
Very good point. That's partly why I had suspected it was primarily the elite who converted to Buddhism. Plus given the handicaps on the bulk of the population under Hinduism, including those deemed as non-Ayran it would be expected there would be a lot of resistance to Hinduism being restored as the dominant religion.
Yeah, that's what makes it so odd. Currently, I can only speculate. Did so many Buddhists join monasteries/nunneries like their founder?
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