stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,853 
Likes: 13,235
|
Post by stevep on Sept 2, 2023 17:12:52 GMT
I don't think Prussia would be interested. It was Schleswig, along with Holstein that Prussia wanted because it contained a German population and also was physically connected to Germany. Iceland, as well as having a smaller population and being poorer was a distant island that Prussia, with no real naval tradition or fleet would find a pain to defend.
Also how would the British reaction be with a Prussian presence behind the main island.
They would find it strange but not a serious threat in 1864. Relations with many of the Germans states were good and Victoria's eldest daughter was married to the Prussian heir. Also given Prussia's lack of naval strength or history for that matter it wouldn't be seen as much of an issue. - At least as long as they didn't try and interfere with fishing operations in the region but that would be unlikely.
If the basic history didn't change after that and by ~1900 Prussian controlled Germany has become Europe's most powerful state, both militarily and economic and Wilhelm II and Tirpitz were starting to threaten a naval race it would be much more of a concern. If a 1914 type WWI situation came around the question is how heavily fortified was the island and how quickly could Britain occupy it, or at least prevent it being used as a naval base - whether for major warships, raiders, U boats or blockade runners. Given geography I think it would be the 2nd highest priority for Britain after only seeking to prevent the occupation of Belgium and France.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,031
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2023 17:36:53 GMT
Also how would the British reaction be with a Prussian presence behind the main island. They would find it strange but not a serious threat in 1864. Relations with many of the Germans states were good and Victoria's eldest daughter was married to the Prussian heir. Also given Prussia's lack of naval strength or history for that matter it wouldn't be seen as much of an issue. - At least as long as they didn't try and interfere with fishing operations in the region but that would be unlikely. If the basic history didn't change after that and by ~1900 Prussian controlled Germany has become Europe's most powerful state, both militarily and economic and Wilhelm II and Tirpitz were starting to threaten a naval race it would be much more of a concern. If a 1914 type WWI situation came around the question is how heavily fortified was the island and how quickly could Britain occupy it, or at least prevent it being used as a naval base - whether for major warships, raiders, U boats or blockade runners. Given geography I think it would be the 2nd highest priority for Britain after only seeking to prevent the occupation of Belgium and France.
Have been to Iceland, they need to import almost everything. So a Royal Navy blockade will be enough. |
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Sept 2, 2023 19:26:47 GMT
Yes, Iceland would be close to indefensible. Maybe that'd motivate Prussia/Germany to seek an alliance with Britain?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,031
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Sept 2, 2023 19:33:28 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Sept 5, 2023 23:31:47 GMT
WI John Milton had written an Arthurian epos instead of "Paradise Lost", as he had considered originally?
|
|
|
|
Post by diamondstorm on Sept 11, 2023 3:51:23 GMT
Could it be possible for the Popham Colony to survive? It was considered the northern twin to Jamestown, Virginia in 1607 and far fewer people died at the Popham Colony during the winter.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheRomanSlayer on Sept 13, 2023 14:53:19 GMT
Question: How Would the Religious Dynamics of England be affected from a Successful Gunpowder Plot?
Assuming that said plot was successful, would we see the English replicate the French Wars of Religion that may surpass the Wars of the Roses in terms of civilian casualties? Alternatively, would a re-Catholicized England also have a huge effect on the 30YW as well?
|
|
|
|
Post by halferking on Sept 15, 2023 17:30:12 GMT
Question: How Would the Religious Dynamics of England be affected from a Successful Gunpowder Plot? Assuming that said plot was successful, would we see the English replicate the French Wars of Religion that may surpass the Wars of the Roses in terms of civilian casualties? Alternatively, would a re-Catholicized England also have a huge effect on the 30YW as well?
The co-conspirators wanted to install James I & VI young daughter Elizabeth and establish a Regency.
James and his heir Henry Frederick, The Prince of Wales were killed in the blast, but James had another son - a young boy named Charles. Counter-revolutionary Forces will take the young Prince into their custody immediately declaring him the rightful heir to the Throne. It could be Catholics sympathetic to the Plotter’s cause in Scotland might try to take the boy or even kill him.
The Gun Powder Plotters would have a battle on their hands to secure London. Although there were Catholics in the city that did not necessarily mean they were allies. In OTL Lord Monteagle, a Catholic, for example disclosed the letter, written by an unknown hand, warning him to stay away from the Opening of Parliament to the King. The King ordered Sir Thomas Knyvet to search the cellars and thus Fawkes and the plot were discovered and foiled.
I don’t think there would be a religious war in fact the revolution is likely to be short lived.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheRomanSlayer on Sept 15, 2023 19:54:14 GMT
Question: How Would the Religious Dynamics of England be affected from a Successful Gunpowder Plot? Assuming that said plot was successful, would we see the English replicate the French Wars of Religion that may surpass the Wars of the Roses in terms of civilian casualties? Alternatively, would a re-Catholicized England also have a huge effect on the 30YW as well?
The co-conspirators wanted to install James I & VI young daughter Elizabeth and establish a Regency.
James and his heir Henry Frederick, The Prince of Wales were killed in the blast, but James had another son - a young boy named Charles. Counter-revolutionary Forces will take the young Prince into their custody immediately declaring him the rightful heir to the Throne. It could be Catholics sympathetic to the Plotter’s cause in Scotland might try to take the boy or even kill him.
The Gun Powder Plotters would have a battle on their hands to secure London. Although there were Catholics in the city that did not necessarily mean they were allies. In OTL Lord Monteagle, a Catholic, for example disclosed the letter, written by an unknown hand, warning him to stay away from the Opening of Parliament to the King. The King ordered Sir Thomas Knyvet to search the cellars and thus Fawkes and the plot were discovered and foiled.
I don’t think there would be a religious war in fact the revolution is likely to be short lived.
If it was short lived, I could see England being even more radically Anti-Catholic as a result of this scenario playing out. Heck, the backlash would be bloody in this scenario too. The Anglo-Irish relations as a result of a successful Gunpowder Plot would be rather nasty. |
|
|
|
Post by halferking on Sept 16, 2023 10:53:41 GMT
The co-conspirators wanted to install James I & VI young daughter Elizabeth and establish a Regency.
James and his heir Henry Frederick, The Prince of Wales were killed in the blast, but James had another son - a young boy named Charles. Counter-revolutionary Forces will take the young Prince into their custody immediately declaring him the rightful heir to the Throne. It could be Catholics sympathetic to the Plotter’s cause in Scotland might try to take the boy or even kill him.
The Gun Powder Plotters would have a battle on their hands to secure London. Although there were Catholics in the city that did not necessarily mean they were allies. In OTL Lord Monteagle, a Catholic, for example disclosed the letter, written by an unknown hand, warning him to stay away from the Opening of Parliament to the King. The King ordered Sir Thomas Knyvet to search the cellars and thus Fawkes and the plot were discovered and foiled.
I don’t think there would be a religious war in fact the revolution is likely to be short lived.
If it was short lived, I could see England being even more radically Anti-Catholic as a result of this scenario playing out. Heck, the backlash would be bloody in this scenario too. The Anglo-Irish relations as a result of a successful Gunpowder Plot would be rather nasty.
I must make a slight correction – I think Charles may have been in London rather than Scotland, which makes things slightly more dramatic – the plotters were keen to take him and ride north to the Midlands with Charles to 'kidnap' Elizabeth – so there would be a race on to secure the now infant King.
The plotters were a small group and therefore the number of people who knew of the plot, other than the cabal, were just as small. Many Catholics were be outraged at the attempted attack which was to be carried out in their name. Life for Catholics was ‘uncomfortable’ however unlike his successors who had ruled over a land torn apart by religious conflict James believed them to be loyal to the Crown, but he did make them swear an oath of allegiance to him rather than the Pope. The more radical Protestant MPs, following the failed attack, called for tougher response against the Catholic population.
If the attack had happened, then Catholics would have a choice – either swear allegiance to the ‘new regime’ or declare for Charles. I suspect that they would be appalled and angry that a few men could endanger the entire Catholic community for what was a selfish power grab. There would probably be retaliatory attacks against the Catholics, but I would think that the large percentage, if not all, English Catholics would declare for Charles and the ‘Carolean Regency Council’ and make a very public statement about doing so in the hopes of dissuading Protestant vigilantism.
With regards to Ireland, I’m not sure the Carolean Regency Council would want to upset the apple cart. James’ policy toward the Irish Catholics had many of them leave for Europe, which created an atmosphere of peace. I can imagine that the CRC would want to maintain some sort of truce. Either that or martial law would be declared. The harsh treatment of Irish Catholics would anger the Catholic Monarchs of Europe and that would be a problem at such a vulnerable time.
|
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Sept 16, 2023 12:12:52 GMT
AHC: screw Prussia.
|
|
|
|
Post by Max Sinister on Sept 16, 2023 18:25:00 GMT
A defeat in the Seven-Year War would do the trick. Its opponents had already planned to leave only Brandenburg and Farther Pomerania.
Or Napoleon decides to dismember it completely. The question would be, how. It's a pretty big area.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,031
Likes: 49,424
|
Post by lordroel on Sept 16, 2023 18:27:04 GMT
[quote author=" Max Sinister" timestamp="1694888700" source="/post/189684/thread"Or Napoleon decides to dismember it completely. The question would be, how. It's a pretty big area.[/div] [/quote] Well if he can destroy Prussia, one lest enemy to worry about. |
|
|
|
Post by TheRomanSlayer on Sept 17, 2023 1:15:05 GMT
If it was short lived, I could see England being even more radically Anti-Catholic as a result of this scenario playing out. Heck, the backlash would be bloody in this scenario too. The Anglo-Irish relations as a result of a successful Gunpowder Plot would be rather nasty.
I must make a slight correction – I think Charles may have been in London rather than Scotland, which makes things slightly more dramatic – the plotters were keen to take him and ride north to the Midlands with Charles to 'kidnap' Elizabeth – so there would be a race on to secure the now infant King.
The plotters were a small group and therefore the number of people who knew of the plot, other than the cabal, were just as small. Many Catholics were be outraged at the attempted attack which was to be carried out in their name. Life for Catholics was ‘uncomfortable’ however unlike his successors who had ruled over a land torn apart by religious conflict James believed them to be loyal to the Crown, but he did make them swear an oath of allegiance to him rather than the Pope. The more radical Protestant MPs, following the failed attack, called for tougher response against the Catholic population.
If the attack had happened, then Catholics would have a choice – either swear allegiance to the ‘new regime’ or declare for Charles. I suspect that they would be appalled and angry that a few men could endanger the entire Catholic community for what was a selfish power grab. There would probably be retaliatory attacks against the Catholics, but I would think that the large percentage, if not all, English Catholics would declare for Charles and the ‘Carolean Regency Council’ and make a very public statement about doing so in the hopes of dissuading Protestant vigilantism.
With regards to Ireland, I’m not sure the Carolean Regency Council would want to upset the apple cart. James’ policy toward the Irish Catholics had many of them leave for Europe, which created an atmosphere of peace. I can imagine that the CRC would want to maintain some sort of truce. Either that or martial law would be declared. The harsh treatment of Irish Catholics would anger the Catholic Monarchs of Europe and that would be a problem at such a vulnerable time.
Which candidate did the plotters want to install as a Catholic ruler of England? |
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Sept 17, 2023 6:17:47 GMT
WI: Henry VIII born a girl.
|
|
