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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 2, 2023 16:26:52 GMT
How far realistically could they spread and how?
A realistic PoD is Caesar dying in Gaul and Gaul never coming under Roman rule. Then the Germanic tribes pushing westward will encounter loose tribes and not the best army in the world manning the limes and territorial gains are going to be much easier for Germanic tribes, as well as assimilation of conquered Gallic territories.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jan 2, 2023 22:53:35 GMT
Nowadays, the linguistic border is pretty close to the old Roman border so it could spread pretty far. The problem however is that a much more written language (like Latin or Greek) has much more staying power. But strong Germanic tribes and tribal alliances could push very far. I mean, OTL the Vandals went all the way to North Africa. So what it mostly takes is greater comparative numbers. So something like a serious plague could have a huge effect if it hits just before these incursions.
I think that the existence of Rome could actually make it easier for these tribes to push much further because it's much easier to advance through Roman territory than it is through countless smaller polities. The main linguistic issue is just the size of the respective populations. These conquerors were relatively small in number and there were far too few of them to even effectively control the much larger local populations. Even though they displaced a proportion of the ruling class.
For a language to spread that much I think that what you really need is a reason to preserve that minority language. And that probably means either some strong cultural touchstones or a religion.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 3, 2023 12:36:18 GMT
Nowadays, the linguistic border is pretty close to the old Roman border so it could spread pretty far. The problem however is that a much more written language (like Latin or Greek) has much more staying power. But strong Germanic tribes and tribal alliances could push very far. I mean, OTL the Vandals went all the way to North Africa. So what it mostly takes is greater comparative numbers. So something like a serious plague could have a huge effect if it hits just before these incursions. I think that the existence of Rome could actually make it easier for these tribes to push much further because it's much easier to advance through Roman territory than it is through countless smaller polities. The main linguistic issue is just the size of the respective populations. These conquerors were relatively small in number and there were far too few of them to even effectively control the much larger local populations. Even though they displaced a proportion of the ruling class. For a language to spread that much I think that what you really need is a reason to preserve that minority language. And that probably means either some strong cultural touchstones or a religion.
Would agree with this. Have seen it suggested that many if not the majority of the 'German' invaders were actually local people within the empire who found 'barbarian' run far better than being under an increasingly despotic and dysfunctional empire and that groups such as the Vandals were lead by German leaders but largely local populations in Europe who joined them.
Maintaining the language as a source of identity is a problem given the greater organisation and prestige of Latin and Greek. However as the Anglo-Saxons showed in what became England its definitely possible. Probably in part because the total collapse of any Roman/imperial identity in the region. On the continent some element of this remained and resurged to some degree plus there was a religious issue as the predominantly Arian Germans were increasingly converted/overcome by the Orthodox/Catholic branches which provided a tool by which the older branch of Christianity was able to restore its control. Possibly it needs a stronger basis for Arianism and a weaker faith in the west especially so that any attempt at restoring the old system by a Justinian for instance is seen by most of the population as a foreign incursion rather than a liberation.
One other issue of course is that while the Germans were vastly outnumbered by the people they came to rule in the west there were still a lot of them and they were in turn driven west by the Huns. The Goths are supposed to have been driven from kingdoms in what is now the Ukraine region. While its quite possible that they were also a ruling elite there and their likely to be under continued threat from steppe peoples this represented a considerable loss in territory and the late Dark ages and much of the Medieval period saw that while Germanic presence was being driven west out of Spain, Italy and what became France it was in turn pushing what seems to be predominately Slavic populations out of areas which seem to have occupied much of what we think of as Germany today and prior to 1914/1918 areas that are now Polish or Czech among others. As such for a maximum extend of Germanic languages it possibly requires holding at least some of those lands or a more successful 'drive to the east'.
The other alternative is if Germanic languages became fully dominant in say Iberia and France as well as the UK then if those areas form the basis of an equivalent to OTL early age of European exploration/conquest then the Americas and much of Africa could end up speaking Germanic tongues.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 3, 2023 13:08:53 GMT
If I take the wording literally - world wide - they did; OTL English have become a lingua franca.
To be discussion friendly I have to lean to the other posters - and according to some historians the Germanics were a nobility that managed to outside of Germania to unite diverse groups of peoples fleeing/resettling/whatever into groups which were given the name of the ruling class i.e. the Visi Goth of Spain whose Germanic tongue quickly went out of use with the Arabic invasion.
This latter also serve to show that if the ruling class is minority - linguistically - their language will only remain in use as long as they rule - once they are out or married into local nobility their language will tend to die out and having a clerical written language that is also being in use for administration doesn't make matters any better.
So You have to have real migration of Peoples - not just ruling class to make an impact like Crimean Tartars and such - Hungarians - Bulgarians - Arabs outside the Peninsular and later Spanish, Brits and French into the colonies.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 3, 2023 13:33:18 GMT
What about Crimean Goths having a lot of luck and creating an empire of their own?
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Post by Max Sinister on Jan 4, 2023 9:42:38 GMT
There's the Gurps Alternate Earths II TL Midgard in which the Vikings in Russia spread all over Siberia up to the Pacific coast.
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Jan 4, 2023 9:46:18 GMT
What about Crimean Goths having a lot of luck and creating an empire of their own? The problem isn't creating an empire, the problem is creating one where you have lots of people speaking their language. And that's pretty difficult because large parts of Europe and Asia have other prestigious languages that are associated with governance and legitimacy which will in turn lead new ruling groups to adapt them. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 4, 2023 15:01:37 GMT
What about Crimean Goths having a lot of luck and creating an empire of their own? The problem isn't creating an empire, the problem is creating one where you have lots of people speaking their language. And that's pretty difficult because large parts of Europe and Asia have other prestigious languages that are associated with governance and legitimacy which will in turn lead new ruling groups to adapt them. That's not the case in Crimea though. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 4, 2023 18:19:39 GMT
The problem isn't creating an empire, the problem is creating one where you have lots of people speaking their language. And that's pretty difficult because large parts of Europe and Asia have other prestigious languages that are associated with governance and legitimacy which will in turn lead new ruling groups to adapt them. That's not the case in Crimea though. Quite but the surrounds are - lots of peoples not speaking that language and we are back to square one.  |
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