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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 16, 2022 1:52:12 GMT
So this idea just popped into my head and so I wanted to ask it here. What if the attitudes of Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis will effectively flipped on the matter of slavery and its use?
Both are still born in the same place but their views on the use of slavery are flipped. Do we still have a war in 1861? If so how long do you think it'll be?
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 16, 2022 2:20:50 GMT
If that were the case, then I'm not really sure how Jefferson Davis would become President of the CSA at all!
Plus, even if he still did — courtesy, of course, to God lending his butterfly net for a bit — I doubt he'd last long, seeing as supporting and preserving slavery was central to the Confederacy's whole reason for existing. At that point, Davis wouldn't want the office to begin with, and I'm quite sure the rest of the Confederate government would very much agree that he's not the man for the job and pressure him to resign immediately.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 16, 2022 3:02:07 GMT
So this idea just popped into my head and so I wanted to ask it here. What if the attitudes of Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis will effectively flipped on the matter of slavery and its use? Both are still born in the same place and held the same office in life but their views are flipped. Do we still have a war in 1861? If so how long do you think it'll be? |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 16, 2022 4:19:52 GMT
So this idea just popped into my head and so I wanted to ask it here. What if the attitudes of Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis will effectively flipped on the matter of slavery and its use? Both are still born in the same place and held the same office in life but their views are flipped. Do we still have a war in 1861? If so how long do you think it'll be? I thought I did do that. I'll try to fix that. Ok it should be good now. I edited this post a bit so they don't held the office in this what if. But I think Lincoln would still win because the union wasn't too worried about ending the use of slaves, at least anytime soon. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 16, 2022 4:31:36 GMT
Yeah, to be honest, this seems outright ASB to me.
Making Jefferson and Lincoln different men much earlier in life is one thing, but having the former become President of the CSA when he’s supposed to abhor slavery here?! That’s quite another, and — as I said before — I have no idea why Abolitionist Davis would want anything to do with leading the Confederacy, short of feeling a “reluctant” sense of loyalty to his home state of Mississippi and accepting the job very, very hesitantly. And even then, the rest of the CSA government is up to the rafters in people who’d distrust him, undermine him, and pressure him to resign at every turn — making the odds of him keeping the job after accepting it pretty much zero, if you ask me.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 16, 2022 4:41:23 GMT
Yeah, to be honest, this seems outright ASB to me. Making Jefferson and Lincoln different men much earlier in life is one thing, but having the former become President of the CSA when he’s supposed to abhor slavery here?! That’s quite another, and — as I said before — I have no idea why Abolitionist Davis would want anything to do with leading the Confederacy, short of feeling a “reluctant” sense of loyalty to his home state of Mississippi and accepting the job very, very hesitantly. And even then, the rest of the CSA government is up to the rafters in people who’d distrust him, undermine him, and pressure him to resign at every turn — making the odds of him keeping the job after accepting it pretty much zero, if you ask me. You didn't read my last post...did you? I edited that part out. So this post is no longer all that useful. His still born in Mississippi. His just not going to be president of the CSA for sure. He could be but after some thought I removed that because I want this to be less ASB |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Dec 16, 2022 4:42:38 GMT
Yeah, to be honest, this seems outright ASB to me. Making Jefferson and Lincoln different men much earlier in life is one thing, but having the former become President of the CSA when he’s supposed to abhor slavery here?! That’s quite another, and — as I said before — I have no idea why Abolitionist Davis would want anything to do with leading the Confederacy, short of feeling a “reluctant” sense of loyalty to his home state of Mississippi and accepting the job very, very hesitantly. And even then, the rest of the CSA government is up to the rafters in people who’d distrust him, undermine him, and pressure him to resign at every turn — making the odds of him keeping the job after accepting it pretty much zero, if you ask me. You didn't read my last post...did you? I edited that part out. Huh, guess not. |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 16, 2022 4:48:18 GMT
It's alright man. In hindsight having them keep their offices and hold those views was a bit ASB. So I edited it so their views are altered but them winning office could be butterflied away.
The core of the idea is what would happen if they held those views and how them holding them affects the course of US/CSA history. Would the war happen? If so how long and how bad is this war? Stuff like that is what I'm asking for here.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 17, 2022 11:47:11 GMT
It's alright man. In hindsight having them keep their offices and hold those views was a bit ASB. So I edited it so their views are altered but them winning office could be butterflied away. The core of the idea is what would happen if they held those views and how them holding them affects the course of US/CSA history. Would the war happen? If so how long and how bad is this war? Stuff like that is what I'm asking for here.
Given their both effectively fish out of water in that their views are vastly different to the regions they live in them unless they move - Lincoln south and/or Davis south their unlikely to be politically prominent. Lincoln could theoretically become prominent and even President with southern support if the north was divided on him but he's unlikely to gain enough status in Indiana to be considered for higher political office when his massive pro-slavery. Ditto with Davis in the south.
As such your probably butterflied them as anything but minor figures. Could be that Davis, if he still has a reasonably successful military career prior to any CW could become famous - or notorious in the south - as a southern who fights for the north in that conflict. Have seen suggestions that he was the wrong choice as CSA President but would have made a pretty decent general in the war so that could happen here but for the union army. Not sure whether Lincoln would be anything but a minor oddity if his family still moves to Indiana. [Possibly if his family stays in Kentucky?]
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Post by Max Sinister on Dec 17, 2022 15:28:16 GMT
Sounds pretty ASBish.
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Post by lordroel on Dec 17, 2022 15:35:54 GMT
Think it also. Thread moved to Aliens, Magic and other Weird Stuff. |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Dec 24, 2022 15:25:39 GMT
I fail to see what's ASB about any of this. This was the 1800s. Having racist views was the norm of the day. All you're doing is having one hold them and having one not hold them as strongly. It's not like we are having them born in the other person home state. |
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Post by lordroel on Dec 24, 2022 15:40:15 GMT
I fail to see what's ASB about any of this. This was the 1800s. Having racist views was the norm of the day. All you're doing is having one hold them and having one not hold them as strongly. It's not like we are having them born in the other person home state. Still they are complete opposite of their OTL versions and born in states that are the opposite, one was a slave holding state and the other was where slavery was banned. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 26, 2022 13:07:12 GMT
I fail to see what's ASB about any of this. This was the 1800s. Having racist views was the norm of the day. All you're doing is having one hold them and having one not hold them as strongly. It's not like we are having them born in the other person home state. Still they are complete opposite of their OTL versions and born in states that are the opposite, one was a slave holding state and the other was where slavery was banned.
Actually not in this case as Lincoln was born in Kentucky in 1809, although the family moved to what became Indiana in 1816. Partly due to issues of slavery but also because land titles were more clearly defined as Lincoln's father lost several legal actions over land rights in Kentucky. The family had moved west from Virginia - their original settlement being up north in Massachusetts - so its possible with different circumstances they could have stayed in Kentucky or moved back to Virginia. This makes it less unlikely that Lincoln might have emerged as a hard line supporter of slavery. One obvious possibility could be that the US does markedly worse in the 1812 conflict and much of the old NW including the Indiana region is lost to British control. Or simply Lincoln's father Thomas is successful in his legal cases. |
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Post by lordroel on Dec 26, 2022 13:51:31 GMT
Still they are complete opposite of their OTL versions and born in states that are the opposite, one was a slave holding state and the other was where slavery was banned. Actually not in this case as Lincoln was born in Kentucky in 1809, although the family moved to what became Indiana in 1816. Partly due to issues of slavery but also because land titles were more clearly defined as Lincoln's father lost several legal actions over land rights in Kentucky. The family had moved west from Virginia - their original settlement being up north in Massachusetts - so its possible with different circumstances they could have stayed in Kentucky or moved back to Virginia. This makes it less unlikely that Lincoln might have emerged as a hard line supporter of slavery. One obvious possibility could be that the US does markedly worse in the 1812 conflict and much of the old NW including the Indiana region is lost to British control. Or simply Lincoln's father Thomas is successful in his legal cases. Okay, got that part wrong, only looked at where he lived before he became president instead of where he was born. |
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