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Post by justiniano on Dec 14, 2022 18:54:45 GMT
What if Japan didn't do away with it's strict hierarchy during the Meiji restoration?
The hierarchy that had the samurai on top, farmers beneath them, artisans beneath them and merchants beneath them.
Personally I think Japan never would have become a first world country.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 14, 2022 19:07:42 GMT
What if Japan didn't do away with it's strict hierarchy during the Meiji restoration? The hierarchy that had the samurai on top, farmers beneath them, artisans beneath them and merchants beneath them. Personally I think Japan never would have become a first world country.
Very likely. Your probably going to see a lot of investment in terms of weapons and closely related technology but more purchase of such rather than developing the technological and industrial base that enables them to develop and manufacture them themselves. Possibly things going as badly as in China although potentially worse as with a much smaller country it could end up being a bone in a struggle, perhaps between Britain and Russia? The latter would seek to expand into NE China and related areas and Japan would be an obvious follow on from Korea say while Britain would seek to restrain any such Russian expansion.
On the other hand the Japanese did develop quite effective firearms prior to turning in on themselves but with that social system its going to be more difficult to develop things beyond the skilled artisan base. Possibly also a period of internal conflict as some regional lords/clans experiment with various systems and weapons development and there's a tussle for power. Which again might end up in partition or 'colonization' [more accurately probably establishing a protectorate] by western powers or break the country out of such a trap
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Post by justiniano on Dec 14, 2022 20:46:43 GMT
Peronally, I think Japan would industrialize, but it's industry wouldn't be manufacturing, it would be extracting natural resources. What do you think of that possibility?
Also if I'm right about that, since they'd be richer than china they'd try to conquer and colonize Korea, but without the manufacturing advantage the war would be way more evenly matched.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 15, 2022 11:02:51 GMT
Peronally, I think Japan would industrialize, but it's industry wouldn't be manufacturing, it would be extracting natural resources. What do you think of that possibility? Also if I'm right about that, since they'd be richer than china they'd try to conquer and colonize Korea, but without the manufacturing advantage the war would be way more evenly matched.
I'm not sure what raw materials it has in significant numbers, at least for the industrial age. Japan since it started industrializing has been heavily reliant on imports of most materials hence its vulnerability to both military and economic restrictions.
Unless you mean it seeks to extract such materials in neighbouring states, such as Korea and China and possibly further afield? Mind you even this would be difficult if the merchants are still pretty much the bottom of the status pile as that needs a lot of knowledge and cash to get running as well as substantial support from a government to protect such facilities in unstable neighbouring states.
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Post by justiniano on Dec 15, 2022 20:26:06 GMT
I'm not sure what raw materials it has in significant numbers, at least for the industrial age. Japan since it started industrializing has been heavily reliant on imports of most materials hence its vulnerability to both military and economic restrictions.
I mean they'd manufactur everything they were manufacturing before, but focus more on extracting natural resources and have a higher proportion of people still in agriculture. Unless you mean it seeks to extract such materials in neighbouring states, such as Korea and China and possibly further afield? that too but ofc it would need to conquer them first. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Dec 17, 2022 15:27:36 GMT
Besides of coal, Japan doesn't have many natural resources. Hard to change that.
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Post by justiniano on Dec 18, 2022 9:14:35 GMT
Besides of coal, Japan doesn't have many natural resources. Hard to change that. Ok, so what do u think would happen? |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 18, 2022 9:29:01 GMT
Besides of coal, Japan doesn't have many natural resources. Hard to change that. Ok, so what do u think would happen? I think that without the reforms Japan wouldn't amount to much. It would be an impoverished group of islands dominated by an outdated military class. That class would be pretty unlikely to want to get people educated abroad because they might get different ideas so they couldn't really build up industry. It would probably be better to just import weapons once artisans really can't keep up in the quality department anymore. |
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Post by justiniano on Dec 26, 2022 17:52:41 GMT
That class would be pretty unlikely to want to get people educated abroad Why not in the porfiriato? The ideology of Japan was pretty different from western countries in OTL as well. |
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raunchel
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Post by raunchel on Dec 26, 2022 18:44:48 GMT
That class would be pretty unlikely to want to get people educated abroad Why not in the porfiriato? The ideology of Japan was pretty different from western countries in OTL as well. I fear that there a typo because I don't know what a porfiriato is outside of a specific period in Mexico, which isn't a great source of education to industrialise. The main reason why deeply hierarchical societies tend to not like education is because education is the kind of thing that can upset hierarchies. The more liberal Japan of this era could deal with that but one more reliant on the old power structures just doesn't have that. |
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