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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 17, 2022 18:22:41 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_ColonyWhat makes this scenario interesting is that. 1. The population is self sufficient 2. Haa a large room for expansion 3. Is very zealous and puts a huge emphasis on education for it's time. Hence given it's insane fertility rate, it is going to expand rapidly across North America and is going to absolutely dominate both Americas. What relations does it have with the world which is largely pagan at this time? stevep
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2022 20:15:34 GMT
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_ColonyWhat makes this scenario interesting is that. 1. The population is self sufficient 2. Haa a large room for expansion 3. Is very zealous and puts a huge emphasis on education for it's time. Hence given it's insane fertility rate, it is going to expand rapidly across North America and is going to absolutely dominate both Americas. What relations does it have with the world which is largely pagan at this time? stevep
Is it self sustainable by 1660? Probably largely so but likely some articles they still rely on imports from England or the rest of Europe for. However by that time their probably fairly secure although have you heard of King Philip's War? That was bloody enough and could be markedly worse for the colonists if they can't call on support from or trade with the rest of Europe or possibly even other colonies.
I think it likely they will pull through but its not certain.
If so it has a good chance of being the dominant power in the region assuming they can maintain their technological and social advantage over their neighbours. However a number of peoples and tribes in N America sought to learn from the invading Europeans with at least some measure of success and here the isolated colonists are going to be more vulnerable.
True their now got a much weaker opposition who will be hit by a new wave of disease that the locals in the 1660's may have started developing resistance to. However this also means the region have less development and less local workers to be press ganged into labouring for them. Climate and some of the wildlife will be somewhat different as well so if something threatens their food supply the colonists could be in a dire position.
Also how likely is it that those attributes, i.e. high fertility, favouring of education etc will stay for an extended period. If they become a ruling elite over a large number of native slaves/serfs they could easily become a lot more complacent and corrupt. Not to mention as they spread further and further its less and less likely they can be able to maintain a high level of unity. You could see groups breaking off simply because of the distances involves or because of internal disputes leading to some factions seeking to break away from 'persecution' by whoever's in charge in the original colony.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 17, 2022 20:32:36 GMT
Native Americans of 27 BC are far less developed. The diseases are going to strike them with the same force as in 1600s. Expect lots of free land around the colony.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 17, 2022 21:02:07 GMT
Native Americans of 27 BC are far less developed. The diseases are going to strike them with the same force as in 1600s. Expect lots of free land around the colony.
True and I must admit I forgot that initially but that also means a lot less people to give advice and information to the colonists. Their likely to come through and become the giant of the region and have big impacts on the rest of the world if/when some return to Europe but their likely to splinter which might limit some what their expansion rate.
Likely some will seek to reach Europe to find out why there has been no contact - although attempts to reach other British colonies and finding nothing they recognise there is likely to happen 1st and give them some ideas. Plus if any of them have a significant interest in astronomy that will give them some clues even if they can't clearly identify the date their now in.
Thinking about it some of them might seek to reach the holy land in about 50-60 years in the hope of finding [and possibly rescuing] a certain Jewish leader. Which would be a shock to all involved I suspect.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 17, 2022 22:07:18 GMT
Native Americans of 27 BC are far less developed. The diseases are going to strike them with the same force as in 1600s. Expect lots of free land around the colony.
True and I must admit I forgot that initially but that also means a lot less people to give advice and information to the colonists. Their likely to come through and become the giant of the region and have big impacts on the rest of the world if/when some return to Europe but their likely to splinter which might limit some what their expansion rate.
Likely some will seek to reach Europe to find out why there has been no contact - although attempts to reach other British colonies and finding nothing they recognise there is likely to happen 1st and give them some ideas. Plus if any of them have a significant interest in astronomy that will give them some clues even if they can't clearly identify the date their now in.
Thinking about it some of them might seek to reach the holy land in about 50-60 years in the hope of finding [and possibly rescuing] a certain Jewish leader. Which would be a shock to all involved I suspect.
Three things. 1. Did the actual colonists have someone who would know iron, coke, sulfur and coal veins when she or he saw it? Not to mention copper, potassium, or tin? How to mine the ores, smelt, separate, and purify the slements out? As I remember; they did not in the first wave. They had to recruit these specialists, once they spotted the Native American threat to them. 2. Did they have an iron smith aboard to make tools and weapons? I know they had carpenters, we still have their wooden artifacts. Did they have shipwrights? Cabinet makers were / are not enough. 3. Did they have someone who knew how to roll and bore out gun barrels and make precision SPRINGS of the leaf and coil type? See 1..
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Post by shadow007 on Nov 18, 2022 2:35:14 GMT
There would be less contact, trade and traveling between the tribes. That and the smaller populations mean that European diseases would spread much slower
Enslavement is not an option unless they want an Inbred population. Don't they rely on Indians trading food to them?
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 18, 2022 8:58:42 GMT
Population in 1660 is approx. 2,000. I am sure there are plenty of blacksmiths.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 18, 2022 9:03:01 GMT
Population in 1660 is approx. 2,000. I am sure there are plenty of blacksmiths. Really?
One who could make steel. ONE.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 18, 2022 11:38:48 GMT
Are you sure that's the only one? How so?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 18, 2022 14:32:52 GMT
There would be less contact, trade and traveling between the tribes. That and the smaller populations mean that European diseases would spread much slower Enslavement is not an option unless they want an Inbred population. Don't they rely on Indians trading food to them?
In the early years yes. The famous example of the Indians teaching them how to grow maize is often repeated. By 1660 I'm not sure of the situation. That they can assemble a fairly large militia 30 years later and that their seizing territory from the locals suggest their looking for more land for their own farmers by then so that probably isn't a big issue. However if they have a significant reliance on some supplies from the local Indian communities - or more likely from other colonies/Britain/Europe - then the loss of those would be a problem, possibly a big one.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 18, 2022 14:36:37 GMT
Population in 1660 is approx. 2,000. I am sure there are plenty of blacksmiths.
Ah that is a smaller population than I was assuming for that date. If its only that community that is brought along - possibly there were a number of outlying settlements that aren't included in that figure - then they could struggle. A bad winter or some disease outbreak would hit them hard and at most you might only be able to have a couple of hundred militia even if you could maintain equipment for them and spare them from their other work for some training.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Nov 18, 2022 15:04:09 GMT
Assuming that everything goes right, what prospects open up before the colony? As I mentioned before, they are religious fanatics with a very high birth rate and a huge focus on education.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 18, 2022 17:31:06 GMT
Are you sure that's the only one? How so? These are MAYFLOWER people. US royalty. They have confirmed geneologies that go back to Plymouth Rock.
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Post by lordroel on Nov 18, 2022 17:33:25 GMT
Assuming that everything goes right, what prospects open up before the colony? As I mentioned before, they are religious fanatics with a very high birth rate and a huge focus on education. So i would like to see evidence to this as i do not think we can describe the Plymouth colony as religious fanatics.
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Post by miletus12 on Nov 18, 2022 17:51:05 GMT
Assuming that everything goes right, what prospects open up before the colony? As I mentioned before, they are religious fanatics with a very high birth rate and a huge focus on education. So i would like to see evidence to this as i do not think we can describe the Plymouth colony as religious fanatics. They were not.The Separatists were seen again in the form of various "communities" (Mormons and the Black Muslim Movement), so it is easy for the general public to call them "radicals", but as a general rule, these movements were simplifiers or reformers who rejected hierarchial totalitarianisms for a more free and loose intepretation of conventional social norms. They were not bomb-throwers and witch burners. That would be the Puritans. Those intolerant people were the fanatics, not the Separatists.
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