Post by justiniano on Oct 3, 2022 4:34:10 GMT
Please tell me what you think would happen after all of this.
If the pope allowed Henry VIII to have all the annulments and divorces he wanted, given the dispensation to get divorced and annulled, Henry VIII would possibly remain in the Church. However, dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church was rising and quite a few bishops and leading church leaders in England already wanted to control their own religious destiny.
I also heard that pope Clement VII was a puppet of the HRE at the time, so if what I heard is accurate then the PoD is that he manages to escape the 1527 sack of Rome, and flee to Avignon. From Avignon, an understandably pissed Clement agrees to Henry’s annulment by decreeing that Catherine’s earlier annulment to Prince Arthur was wrongly decided.
Clement’s price, Henry VIII marries a Valois princess, and joins the war against Charles V. Since this perfectly coincides with Henry’s intentions, he agrees, fighting some mostly indecisive sieges in Burgundy until he runs out of money or Charles smashes the French.
On top of that England as a whole wasn't keen on getting involved in more religious conflict (Charles of Spain was gearing up for a Europe wide union of Catholicism against the Moors) on top of his own desires to secure France (or at the very least former English holdings in France. Spain had been an ally, but despite winning and capturing the French King didn't bother to reward his Ally Henry VIII with a single damn thing. And towards the end of that Alliance Charles was also beset by Protestants in the Germanies (Hussites in Bohemia, Calvinists and Lutherans in northern Germany) and would love to drag England into that nearly eternal quagmire.
And the biggest landowner in England at the time were the Catholic Monasteries that were just dripping in wealth: not only donations, but great swaths of herding land for wool (the prime crop of England and the source of her wealth for centuries).
Given all of that, it was inevitable for there to be some kind of conflict with the Church (who supported Charles to the exclusion of Henry VIII, even without any marriage complications). Henry wanted more lands and France was locked away to him by both the Church and Spain, Henry wanted a piece of the colonial pie (or at least was resentful of the Treaties of Tordesillas) and was sick of being dragged into conflicts on the Continent with no reward.
Eventually, there'd have been a schism, with pressure for reform coming from within and a desire to seize the monastery lands sweetening the pot. Add in the growing demand to settle in the Americas, by the late 17th century we'd still see a Protestant England, although without the events of the later 1500's (specifically the actions of both Mary and Elizabeth to drive the creation of a hardline sect of Anglicanism) we'd likely not see the same Puritanical movement and settlement that would so shape early American history and development. And due to delayed English colonialism in North America, the French likely subjugate an area that will roughly correlate to where the boundaries of the State of Maine are before the British empire can.
The English Civil War, for example, was driven by puritans who felt Parliament should have a say in running the kingdom and that the king was not absolute. Without James I's execution, his children wouldn’t have been sent to be raised in France. Charles II would claim the throne without any bother, and prehaps he wouldn’t have been the lavish party animal we know him as in otl (due to being raised in the UK and not France) Also, the only other country in OTL to have a civil war where the parliament had defeated the Monarchy was the Netherlands. So we'd see a lot more Dutch and far less British influences on Republicanism & Democracy. Also due to far less parliamentary influence in the U.S. when it gains independence it will likely do so as a republican monarchy.
So what happens next? I'm also curious as to what this means for Wales, Scotland & Ireland.
If the pope allowed Henry VIII to have all the annulments and divorces he wanted, given the dispensation to get divorced and annulled, Henry VIII would possibly remain in the Church. However, dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church was rising and quite a few bishops and leading church leaders in England already wanted to control their own religious destiny.
I also heard that pope Clement VII was a puppet of the HRE at the time, so if what I heard is accurate then the PoD is that he manages to escape the 1527 sack of Rome, and flee to Avignon. From Avignon, an understandably pissed Clement agrees to Henry’s annulment by decreeing that Catherine’s earlier annulment to Prince Arthur was wrongly decided.
Clement’s price, Henry VIII marries a Valois princess, and joins the war against Charles V. Since this perfectly coincides with Henry’s intentions, he agrees, fighting some mostly indecisive sieges in Burgundy until he runs out of money or Charles smashes the French.
On top of that England as a whole wasn't keen on getting involved in more religious conflict (Charles of Spain was gearing up for a Europe wide union of Catholicism against the Moors) on top of his own desires to secure France (or at the very least former English holdings in France. Spain had been an ally, but despite winning and capturing the French King didn't bother to reward his Ally Henry VIII with a single damn thing. And towards the end of that Alliance Charles was also beset by Protestants in the Germanies (Hussites in Bohemia, Calvinists and Lutherans in northern Germany) and would love to drag England into that nearly eternal quagmire.
And the biggest landowner in England at the time were the Catholic Monasteries that were just dripping in wealth: not only donations, but great swaths of herding land for wool (the prime crop of England and the source of her wealth for centuries).
Given all of that, it was inevitable for there to be some kind of conflict with the Church (who supported Charles to the exclusion of Henry VIII, even without any marriage complications). Henry wanted more lands and France was locked away to him by both the Church and Spain, Henry wanted a piece of the colonial pie (or at least was resentful of the Treaties of Tordesillas) and was sick of being dragged into conflicts on the Continent with no reward.
Eventually, there'd have been a schism, with pressure for reform coming from within and a desire to seize the monastery lands sweetening the pot. Add in the growing demand to settle in the Americas, by the late 17th century we'd still see a Protestant England, although without the events of the later 1500's (specifically the actions of both Mary and Elizabeth to drive the creation of a hardline sect of Anglicanism) we'd likely not see the same Puritanical movement and settlement that would so shape early American history and development. And due to delayed English colonialism in North America, the French likely subjugate an area that will roughly correlate to where the boundaries of the State of Maine are before the British empire can.
The English Civil War, for example, was driven by puritans who felt Parliament should have a say in running the kingdom and that the king was not absolute. Without James I's execution, his children wouldn’t have been sent to be raised in France. Charles II would claim the throne without any bother, and prehaps he wouldn’t have been the lavish party animal we know him as in otl (due to being raised in the UK and not France) Also, the only other country in OTL to have a civil war where the parliament had defeated the Monarchy was the Netherlands. So we'd see a lot more Dutch and far less British influences on Republicanism & Democracy. Also due to far less parliamentary influence in the U.S. when it gains independence it will likely do so as a republican monarchy.
So what happens next? I'm also curious as to what this means for Wales, Scotland & Ireland.
