simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jan 23, 2023 1:55:02 GMT
1.) The experience of an individual is worth very, very little, be it 4 months or 4 years.
2.) Simply repeating your earlier assertion that Canadian food lacks spices doesn't add any proof to it. This is the only time I have every come across that idea in 25 years of studying food history, so the bar is requisitely high. Canadian food is also not 'more British', given the length of separation, different climes and continent and many other factors. Assertion is not proof, nor an argument.
The rest of your post is a confusing list of links and statements without a clear connection. About the only comment that can be made is that online lists of Northern regional dishes suffer from the tyranny of the present.
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bytor
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Post by bytor on Jan 24, 2023 18:10:03 GMT
simon darkshade , First of all, it wasn't just a one-time experience it was 4 months living in Nova Scotia second of all Canadian food is often a downgraded version of American food when it's not an exact copy due to there lack of spices and being more British. What an utterly ignorant take. Again, as a Canadian, you are wrong. I mean, in all that time in Nova Scotia, did you encounter the donair? I'm guessing not. What about creamed lobster, or rappie pie, or hodge podge? Or Nova Scotia chowder, moosehunters, Pictou County pizza, or fricot? Just because you spent a teensy, insignificant amount of time in NS doesn't make you the expert on Canadian gastronomy that you clearly, and mistakenly, think you are. |
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Post by American hist on Jan 24, 2023 19:02:28 GMT
bytor, simon darkshade, Here’s the thing I never proclaim myself an expert on Canadian dishes. I said that Canadian food in general was very similar to American cuisine. It is true I’m getting a little opinionated because things are tastier with spices. spices for cheaper in America and easier to find them compared to spices in Canadian supermarkets and it’s true I am or ignorant on the regional dishes. Pizza is a relatively new American dish that was copied from the Italians. If I have to go to sources that you’ve been in the colonial period Southern cuisine was tasty according to most people at the time, in comparison to northern cooking and in the present .1 primarily source is Albion’s seed. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to determine that most people would say that southern cooking of food is generally better than northern food. Southern cuisine is like this because of African cooking indigenous native American food and it’s inhabitants from southern England who settled America in the 1600s. Look, I probably am not very good at naming sources because it’s so common knowledge in my general area . The south also had other immigrants to influence their cooking, but its roots from Europe are largely from southern England. So which of those dishes are not French Canadian? At this point this is another difficult factors because American colonial food was of course from Britain and most people are in agreement that Americans made food even better from the motherland after we struck independence. Southern cooking has been preserved better than northern cooking has been Well, when I mainly many Canadians, perhaps overgeneralize British Canadians. Also, I did try Nova Scotia seafood 🦞 it was fresh too. However I have not tried one of those mom and Pop sea food New England restaurants When my grandmother went to Nova Scotia to make enchiladas as they were staying in a friends house, the Canadiens couldn’t get over how spicy they were(and these enchiladas to be to begin with are not that spicy)
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 26, 2023 19:54:45 GMT
Okay, this is a thread about Cuisine of an Independence Southern CSA, not Canada, so lets go back to the subject of the thread.
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bytor
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Post by bytor on Feb 16, 2023 6:26:26 GMT
I said that Canadian food in general was very similar to American cuisine. No, you didn't. First you said "My family had been to Canada for Thanksgiving once and the food was really bland as they lacked spice’s." And when it was pointed out to you that there isn't a single Canadian style of cooking for you to be able to make such an ignorantly broad assertion, you doubled down with "second of all Canadian food is often a downgraded version of American food when it's not an exact copy" basically insult Canadians thanks to your continuing ignorance. So please just stop. |
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Post by American hist on Mar 8, 2023 2:04:44 GMT
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Post by American hist on Mar 24, 2023 15:51:42 GMT
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Mar 29, 2023 23:35:28 GMT
This is getting very far from the original topic and into the different realm of “Southern cuisine good” and other cousins. Your mistake was getting drawn into the side argument over your subjective statement on the cooking of the Northern United States and Canada and then not letting that issue go. This is completely irrelevant and needs to stop, as it will lead to the thread being closed. I for one, wearing my poster hat, don’t wish that to happen, as there are far too few food history topics around in the whole AH Internet. This is what you need to do: 1.) Go back to the beginning of the thread and look at my first post and your response 2.) Further refine your argument on added Caribbean/Latin American influence on Confederate cuisine. It was a fine one to make, before it slipped down the tangent of critiquing first the whole North and then Canada specifically, but needed better arguments and evidence 3.) Do some research on the issue, above and beyond the scattergun approach you used here: www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/cuisine-of-the-confederate-states-of-america.503721/ |
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mspence
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Post by mspence on Apr 19, 2023 1:09:58 GMT
I wonder if there might be more of a Mexican influence if the CSA spread westward & conquered or annexed Mexico. French cuisine might have an influence as well particularly in Louisiana.
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Post by American hist on Jun 7, 2023 2:40:19 GMT
1.) The experience of an individual is worth very, very little, be it 4 months or 4 years. 2.) Simply repeating your earlier assertion that Canadian food lacks spices doesn't add any proof to it. This is the only time I have every come across that idea in 25 years of studying food history, so the bar is requisitely high. Canadian food is also not 'more British', given the length of separation, different climes and continents and many other factors. Assertion is not proof, nor an argument. The rest of your post is a confusing list of links and statements without a clear connection. About the only comment that can be made is that online lists of Northern regional dishes suffer from the tyranny of the present. No sir the personal experiences of an induvial aren't worth very little what you are essentially saying is my experiences don't matter. We make history every day, but what I think you are coming out of is my experiences are not from the 19th century. The fact is a fellow New Englander agrees with me based on his experiences growing up and as a retired navy man who served his country honorably. If you don't believe me about Southern cooking origins, I might encourage you to read Albion Seed which isn't my only academic material, as I read a lot of reference material and have tasted Southern colonial cooking. It wasn't just the presence of black people that made the South good cooking, but also through who these European immigrants were. As someone born in the mid-Atlantic, non of those Yankees could cook and always stood their noes to my family's enchiladas recipe as we were the only family who ate them. That wasn't the same when my family moved to the show me state. In the town I was raised at a young age, the local claiming to be a Mexican restaurant was bad, perhaps okay, but the people loved the food there! even looking up a certain Dish from that region, while I haven't tasted it it sounds gross. In colonial times food would have been plainer, but the South could grow more of those spices to make their food livelier. bytor, Perhaps the reason why I didn't name a single Canadian dish is that the facts stand center without needing to go into much detail. My coworker from the same state I lived In, who later moved to Georgia, noticed a significant difference in the cuisine, noting the food from the state he was born in was Bland. in fact, it shouldn't take a college degree, let alone a paper to determine which food is blander. If people that PA food is bad, then wait till they taste new england, Canadian dishes, and last, England. I’m that state if you mention a Pecan pie they look at you crazy as me and my fellow officer both confirmed our experiences however that may be different now as southern food as become more officially general American food If someone were used to spicer food, then they would feel more accustomed to that food bytor, if you like your nations food great. I actually didn't notice a great difference in Canadian food because we made our own food or went out to restaurants more than we ever went to other people's houses and ate. I have somewhat received flak for not living there for months and not years in Canada from yall, most Canadians only travel within their bubble, according to a Canadian. America, in my opinion, has better excuses for not every single American having traveled outside their state because we are better populated and more prominent, and in some places, there is nothing to do, like in Nebraska. While I could be wrong, America has done an excellent job nationalizing her food for it to become more general, such as new england's baked beans, burgers, southern fried chicken, etc. Also, again my mom being a navy brat, felt that non of those New Englanders could cook the 70s-80s. My father felt that as well. Every tasted whale meat before, probably not because people who have had it say it's gross, and new england whale vomit was a favorite among her people in colonial times. When I lived for several months in the Caribbean, the spices we tried were unique, but this is just plain stupid how people are getting butt hurt over saying Canadian food lacks spices because I witnessed that at a Canadian grocery store in the spice section. Im not sure how ignorant or aware the Canadians are of their own cuisine; then again, it's a great question of what is genuinely American and what is a regional special as Americans, we borrow a little bit of both. ps I try not to now give out to much info do to my current career job, and on a random note the people of Delaware were a dixie version of the midattalntic, and the food was fine. |
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simon darkshade
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 7, 2023 13:11:39 GMT
1.) The experience of an individual is worth very, very little, be it 4 months or 4 years. 2.) Simply repeating your earlier assertion that Canadian food lacks spices doesn't add any proof to it. This is the only time I have every come across that idea in 25 years of studying food history, so the bar is requisitely high. Canadian food is also not 'more British', given the length of separation, different climes and continents and many other factors. Assertion is not proof, nor an argument. The rest of your post is a confusing list of links and statements without a clear connection. About the only comment that can be made is that online lists of Northern regional dishes suffer from the tyranny of the present. No sir the personal experiences of an induvial aren't worth very little what you are essentially saying is my experiences don't matter. We make history every day, but what I think you are coming out of is my experiences are not from the 19th century. The fact is a fellow New Englander agrees with me based on his experiences growing up and as a retired navy man who served his country honorably. If you don't believe me about Southern cooking origins, I might encourage you to read Albion Seed which isn't my only academic material, as I read a lot of reference material and have tasted Southern colonial cooking. It wasn't just the presence of black people that made the South good cooking, but also through who these European immigrants were. As someone born in the mid-Atlantic, non of those Yankees could cook and always stood their noes to my family's enchiladas recipe as we were the only family who ate them. That wasn't the same when my family moved to the show me state. In the town I was raised at a young age, the local claiming to be a Mexican restaurant was bad, perhaps okay, but the people loved the food there! even looking up a certain Dish from that region, while I haven't tasted it it sounds gross. In colonial times food would have been plainer, but the South could grow more of those spices to make their food livelier. bytor , Perhaps the reason why I didn't name a single Canadian dish is that the facts stand center without needing to go into much detail. My coworker from the same state I lived In, who later moved to Georgia, noticed a significant difference in the cuisine, noting the food from the state he was born in was Bland. in fact, it shouldn't take a college degree, let alone a paper to determine which food is blander. If people that PA food is bad, then wait till they taste new england, Canadian dishes, and last, England. I’m that state if you mention a Pecan pie they look at you crazy as me and my fellow officer both confirmed our experiences however that may be different now as southern food as become more officially general American food If someone were used to spicer food, then they would feel more accustomed to that food bytor , if you like your nations food great. I actually didn't notice a great difference in Canadian food because we made our own food or went out to restaurants more than we ever went to other people's houses and ate. I have somewhat received flak for not living there for months and not years in Canada from yall, most Canadians only travel within their bubble, according to a Canadian. America, in my opinion, has better excuses for not every single American having traveled outside their state because we are better populated and more prominent, and in some places, there is nothing to do, like in Nebraska. While I could be wrong, America has done an excellent job nationalizing her food for it to become more general, such as new england's baked beans, burgers, southern fried chicken, etc. Also, again my mom being a navy brat, felt that non of those New Englanders could cook the 70s-80s. My father felt that as well. Every tasted whale meat before, probably not because people who have had it say it's gross, and new england whale vomit was a favorite among her people in colonial times. When I lived for several months in the Caribbean, the spices we tried were unique, but this is just plain stupid how people are getting butt hurt over saying Canadian food lacks spices because I witnessed that at a Canadian grocery store in the spice section. Im not sure how ignorant or aware the Canadians are of their own cuisine; then again, it's a great question of what is genuinely American and what is a regional special as Americans, we borrow a little bit of both. ps I try not to now give out to much info do to my current career job, and on a random note the people of Delaware were a dixie version of the midattalntic, and the food was fine. 1.) Yes, I am saying that your experiences are worth very, very little in terms of an overall reckoning. Same goes for mine, Lordroel's, steve's and anyone else here. They don't matter above and beyond the individual level insofar as this discussion is concerned, which is in regards to objective measures. People make history for themselves and some actually go forward and literally make history, whilst others are a part of the process. What we are talking about is the objective values, features and styles of a whole cuisine. Now, if you did some research and wrote a book, then that would be worth more; or if you were James Beard, for example. 2.) I've never expressed any doubt as to the origins of Southern cooking. I've spent 25 years reading about it, studying it and cooking it, for what it's worth, which is three fifths of bugger all. Southern cooking did have a distinct style of its own that developed over time, but as a very broad generalisation, there was not a markedly significant difference in the cooking of the Thirteen Colonies, only small divergences and aspects. A particular source that I can recommend wholeheartedly, although it might be hard to get these days, is American Cooking: Southern Style by Eugene Walter (1971), from the series Time Life's Foods of the World. Not only is Walter an engaging writer, but he captures that lost past so very evocatively. 3.) The Midatlantic Colonies had their culinary development strongly influenced by religion, tempered with some of the flowover from the Amish and other groups. All the rest of this part is about your individual experiences, which are of immense value as autobiographical details of your life, as cherished memories, as family tradition and as the story of a man's days, but when we make sweeping statements, we need to rise above that level of evidence and argument. 4.) Food was plainer in some ways in colonial times, but not in others. Spice production and consumption wasn't necessarily narrowly geographically limited. There is a lovely YouTube channel called Townsends about 18th century lifestyle and particularly cooking. Have a plough through that and certain beliefs might change. 5.) Entirely subjective and entirely wrong. There is nothing about English food that is necessarily bland when viewed from an actual historical perspective, not just indulgence in assumed knowledge and cliches. 6.) From this point forward, we just get a litany of personal opinions, personal anecdotes and personal experiences. That isn't really useful from an objective historical measure. When we remove personal opinion and indeed 'the person' from an argument, then we are further on the path to more objective historical analysis. If nothing else, I commend both the book by Eugene Walter and the YouTube videos to you if you (or indeed others who might read this) have an interest in the history of American food. The TL volume on the Cooking of New England is also quite great and every book of the series has the lovely full colour lush photographs typical of the late 1960s and early 1970s era of books on this topic. A gateway to another time and place. |
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Post by American hist on Jun 8, 2023 2:17:35 GMT
No sir the personal experiences of an induvial aren't worth very little what you are essentially saying is my experiences don't matter. We make history every day, but what I think you are coming out of is my experiences are not from the 19th century. The fact is a fellow New Englander agrees with me based on his experiences growing up and as a retired navy man who served his country honorably. If you don't believe me about Southern cooking origins, I might encourage you to read Albion Seed which isn't my only academic material, as I read a lot of reference material and have tasted Southern colonial cooking. It wasn't just the presence of black people that made the South good cooking, but also through who these European immigrants were. As someone born in the mid-Atlantic, non of those Yankees could cook and always stood their noes to my family's enchiladas recipe as we were the only family who ate them. That wasn't the same when my family moved to the show me state. In the town I was raised at a young age, the local claiming to be a Mexican restaurant was bad, perhaps okay, but the people loved the food there! even looking up a certain Dish from that region, while I haven't tasted it it sounds gross. In colonial times food would have been plainer, but the South could grow more of those spices to make their food livelier. bytor , Perhaps the reason why I didn't name a single Canadian dish is that the facts stand center without needing to go into much detail. My coworker from the same state I lived In, who later moved to Georgia, noticed a significant difference in the cuisine, noting the food from the state he was born in was Bland. in fact, it shouldn't take a college degree, let alone a paper to determine which food is blander. If people that PA food is bad, then wait till they taste new england, Canadian dishes, and last, England. I’m that state if you mention a Pecan pie they look at you crazy as me and my fellow officer both confirmed our experiences however that may be different now as southern food as become more officially general American food If someone were used to spicer food, then they would feel more accustomed to that food bytor , if you like your nations food great. I actually didn't notice a great difference in Canadian food because we made our own food or went out to restaurants more than we ever went to other people's houses and ate. I have somewhat received flak for not living there for months and not years in Canada from yall, most Canadians only travel within their bubble, according to a Canadian. America, in my opinion, has better excuses for not every single American having traveled outside their state because we are better populated and more prominent, and in some places, there is nothing to do, like in Nebraska. While I could be wrong, America has done an excellent job nationalizing her food for it to become more general, such as new england's baked beans, burgers, southern fried chicken, etc. Also, again my mom being a navy brat, felt that non of those New Englanders could cook the 70s-80s. My father felt that as well. Every tasted whale meat before, probably not because people who have had it say it's gross, and new england whale vomit was a favorite among her people in colonial times. When I lived for several months in the Caribbean, the spices we tried were unique, but this is just plain stupid how people are getting butt hurt over saying Canadian food lacks spices because I witnessed that at a Canadian grocery store in the spice section. Im not sure how ignorant or aware the Canadians are of their own cuisine; then again, it's a great question of what is genuinely American and what is a regional special as Americans, we borrow a little bit of both. ps I try not to now give out to much info do to my current career job, and on a random note the people of Delaware were a dixie version of the midattalntic, and the food was fine. 1.) Yes, I am saying that your experiences are worth very, very little in terms of an overall reckoning. Same goes for mine, Lordroel's, steve's and anyone else here. They don't matter above and beyond the individual level insofar as this discussion is concerned, which is in regards to objective measures. People make history for themselves and some actually go forward and literally make history, whilst others are a part of the process. What we are talking about is the objective values, features and styles of a whole cuisine. Now, if you did some research and wrote a book, then that would be worth more; or if you were James Beard, for example. 2.) I've never expressed any doubt as to the origins of Southern cooking. I've spent 25 years reading about it, studying it and cooking it, for what it's worth, which is three fifths of bugger all. Southern cooking did have a distinct style of its own that developed over time, but as a very broad generalisation, there was not a markedly significant difference in the cooking of the Thirteen Colonies, only small divergences and aspects. A particular source that I can recommend wholeheartedly, although it might be hard to get these days, is American Cooking: Southern Style by Eugene Walter (1971), from the series Time Life's Foods of the World. Not only is Walter an engaging writer, but he captures that lost past so very evocatively. 3.) The Midatlantic Colonies had their culinary development strongly influenced by religion, tempered with some of the flowover from the Amish and other groups. All the rest of this part is about your individual experiences, which are of immense value as autobiographical details of your life, as cherished memories, as family tradition and as the story of a man's days, but when we make sweeping statements, we need to rise above that level of evidence and argument. 4.) Food was plainer in some ways in colonial times, but not in others. Spice production and consumption wasn't necessarily narrowly geographically limited. There is a lovely YouTube channel called Townsends about 18th century lifestyle and particularly cooking. Have a plough through that and certain beliefs might change. 5.) Entirely subjective and entirely wrong. There is nothing about English food that is necessarily bland when viewed from an actual historical perspective, not just indulgence in assumed knowledge and cliches. 6.) From this point forward, we just get a litany of personal opinions, personal anecdotes and personal experiences. That isn't really useful from an objective historical measure. When we remove personal opinion and indeed 'the person' from an argument, then we are further on the path to more objective historical analysis. If nothing else, I commend both the book by Eugene Walter and the YouTube videos to you if you (or indeed others who might read this) have an interest in the history of American food. The TL volume on the Cooking of New England is also quite great and every book of the series has the lovely full colour lush photographs typical of the late 1960s and early 1970s era of books on this topic. A gateway to another time and place. Okay will you put your experiences above other people from my perspective. People’s experiences do and should matter but to what extent is it taken into consideration? If you mean what I meant by you being brutish you are a jerk, but I'm not trying to be mean or get in trouble. You also are not my schoolmaster and I do not think mods are jerks. I would not say very little because history effects us to this present day. You we're not there during my experiences either although I didn't say you l hold them to be pure gold or the gospel truth for that matter. People’s opinions in the past matter significantly more when it is the topic being presented. However You accused me of using authority in A argument when you are the one using authority in your argument. I don’t know about making an excellent academic paper about southern cooking because the knowledge that I've experienced firsthand and studied has become common knowledge to me and I find it difficult to explain to others what I've learned when they are skeptical. I also do a poor job of citing information in part to what I have that supports my arguments because I can't always pull those resources immediately. I also never said I was an expert about Canada though When I went to Canada I played it safe in restaurants by dining on seafood. Now if I was to state a personal diet preference such as following kosher that wouldn’t matter nor is it germane to my argument. Also if people purpose I am prejudiced against New England that wouldn’t be the case they had some good things going for them. Look anyone can do all the academic research they want to be put until they truly experience an event firsthand or perhaps have at least visited the country one is researching. www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/civil-wars-division-north-and-south-apparent-cookbooks-180955492/ |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jun 8, 2023 6:16:41 GMT
If you mean what I meant by you being brutish you are a jerk, but I'm not trying to be mean or get in trouble. You also are not my schoolmaster and I do not think mods are jerks.
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