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Post by simon darkshade on Aug 1, 2022 14:16:06 GMT
Moderator hat on: Please do not threadjack to push one’s own angle and bring in modern politics of any flavour. Thank you.
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Post by justiniano on Aug 1, 2022 16:10:01 GMT
As with most criminal imperialist ventures, the idea of taking your own citizens and sending them, wholesale, to a foreign land, settling it, and recreating your society in that place, ignores... a. there are already people there who have to live off what the land provides b. those people have their own culture and ways and beliefs. c. their economy and politics is not your economy and politics. d. they have their own interests which they think are more important than what you desire. e. and they do not like you, because you interfere with a ===> d. There is a variant called "Our burden" where a sort of "teaching mission to civilize the locals" is tacked onto the real "loot, pillage, enslave and misgovern" occupation and corruption which an invader imposes in his war of conquest. I don't think Simon was disagreeing with you here. The way this comment is worded makes it seem like you're arguing with him. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 1, 2022 16:26:03 GMT
As with most criminal imperialist ventures, the idea of taking your own citizens and sending them, wholesale, to a foreign land, settling it, and recreating your society in that place, ignores... a. there are already people there who have to live off what the land provides b. those people have their own culture and ways and beliefs. c. their economy and politics is not your economy and politics. d. they have their own interests which they think are more important than what you desire. e. and they do not like you, because you interfere with a ===> d. There is a variant called "Our burden" where a sort of "teaching mission to civilize the locals" is tacked onto the real "loot, pillage, enslave and misgovern" occupation and corruption which an invader imposes in his war of conquest. I don't think Simon was disagreeing with you here. The way this comment is worded makes it seem like you're arguing with him. , a advice. Rule X: No Backseat Moderating. Let the Administrator (Lordroel) or a moderator (Inspector General) do the moderating. Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules. Whenever you see a person breaking the rules, take advantage of the "Report this post to a moderator" link. Or simply IGNORE the offensive post(s) or thread. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Aug 1, 2022 18:09:36 GMT
As with most criminal imperialist ventures, the idea of taking your own citizens and sending them, wholesale, to a foreign land, settling it, and recreating your society in that place, ignores... a. there are already people there who have to live off what the land provides b. those people have their own culture and ways and beliefs. c. their economy and politics is not your economy and politics. d. they have their own interests which they think are more important than what you desire. e. and they do not like you, because you interfere with a ===> d. There is a variant called "Our burden" where a sort of "teaching mission to civilize the locals" is tacked onto the real "loot, pillage, enslave and misgovern" occupation and corruption which an invader imposes in his war of conquest. I don't think Simon was disagreeing with you here. The way this comment is worded makes it seem like you're arguing with him. and objective facts only were allowed here. If I pointed out that the Ethiopian populations economic and political situation at the time had saturated the local environment and used the resource base to the point that there was no viable excess capacity for additional immigrant human beings to be added in large numbers quickly, from any source or any cause in the late 1930s, then it would be correct to this topic. There was not enough fresh water or arable land or infrastructure available in excess capacity and no way to create it quickly. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 1, 2022 18:13:54 GMT
I don't think Simon was disagreeing with you here. The way this comment is worded makes it seem like you're arguing with him. and objective facts only were allowed here. If I pointed out that the Ethiopian populations economic and political situation at the time had saturated the local environment and used the resource base to the point that there was no viable excess capacity for additional immigrant human beings to be added in large numbers quickly, from any source or any cause in the late 1930s, then it would be correct to this topic. There was not enough fresh water or arable land or infrastructure available in excess capacity and no way to create it quickly. Then let make it so it is more time period. Would Italy send those it wants to remove from Italy to Ethiopia, like Stalin send people to Siberia. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Aug 1, 2022 19:03:28 GMT
Could Ethiopia have been subjected to a Cyrenaica type ethnic cleansing? I doubt it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 1, 2022 19:13:23 GMT
Could Ethiopia have been subjected to a Cyrenaica type ethnic cleansing? I doubt it. But Italy did do its best to conduct a reign of terror during its OTL 5 years reign, if they mange to win 40 years earlier, they will do their best to pacify Ethiopia as they did with Libya. |
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Aug 1, 2022 19:54:10 GMT
Could Ethiopia have been subjected to a Cyrenaica type ethnic cleansing? I doubt it. But Italy did do its best to conduct a reign of terror during its OTL 5 years reign, if they mange to win 40 years earlier, they will do their best to pacify Ethiopia as they did with Libya. See maps.   If the effort had begun in 1890, it would have required an infrastructure investment far more massive than just a coast road as was the basis for the Cyrenaica ethnic cleansing in the 1930s. That was only 100,000 Libyans displaced. Ethiopia was about 8 times that area with the west of the country very mountainous and plateaulike, hard to access by nonexistent rail and road, and very easy to create an insurrection in. There are 4 million inhabitants in the area in 1890.   The green dot just south of Tsorone Zalambessa is where the railroad peters out in 1895 and it is just beyond water wagon range of the Mareb River. Guess where the Italians were beaten?  If you run out of water, you cannot move either by horse, or steam locomotive and you cannot sustain 40,000 Europeans cross country. The British in this region, fought off the rivers and supplied their armies and colonists and administrative apparatus by steamboat. They had finally paid attention to how geography dictates military logistics and political operations in east Africa. Learned that one the HARD way. |
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Post by justiniano on Aug 2, 2022 4:02:19 GMT
Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules. Good thing I wasn't doing this. I was just trying to clarify something |
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Post by justiniano on Aug 2, 2022 4:04:45 GMT
This is a thought that just came to me. Would Italy have done more good or bad economically if it only conquered (and only wanted to conquer) the eastern part of Ethiopia dominated by Ethnic Somalis?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Aug 2, 2022 4:11:50 GMT
Backseat Moderating is when people who are not Moderators try to enforce the forum rules. Good thing I wasn't doing this. I was just trying to clarify something Wich was related to something a mod say. No debate please. |
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Post by American hist on Oct 8, 2022 17:43:15 GMT
It would be cool if Italy could import mercenary bands from other countries. Italy should use plenty of Gatling guns,artillery, elephants for cargo usage and perhaps enforce a blockade if the Italian navy hadn’t done so which I assume they probably did.
Perhaps hot air balloon’s would be useful for reconnaissance along with airships.
Since some members were bashing imperialist Europeans well while this is unlikely for Have confederate mercenary technology and weapons be imported in a independent confederate pod.
Perhaps Italian Army can make sure whatever happens the Italians still have the coast through naval fleet protection
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 8, 2022 19:26:23 GMT
Adua was basically the italian commander snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, in any case an italian victory doesn't mean an annexation like 1936 but more Abyssinia becoming an official italian puppet with the full implementation of the italian version of the previous treaty and probably an enlargement of the Eritrea colony.
as consequences:
- Well internally Crispi will remain presidente del consiglio for some more time, the light version of the duce will still govern italy but he has only few years more of life, so once he kick the bucket Giolitti will fully take control of the italian politics. During this years we can see a further worsening of the relationship between Italy and France and a very Germanophile politics and no attempt to make A-H angry in any way
- Kassala will remain under Italian control, without the defeat and the need to regroup there will be no order to retreat on the previous border; so the British will face the fait accomplit (that they agreed previously) that the italians still control the place, so there is the strong possibility that the city will remain under italian control permanently
- Italian prestige will not receive such a blow and there will be no need to 'avenge' Adua and this mean that a fully invasion of Libya is no more a given
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Post by justiniano on Oct 8, 2022 23:45:26 GMT
Adua was basically the italian commander snatch defeat from the jaws of victory In which conflict? |
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Post by lukedalton on Oct 9, 2022 0:12:17 GMT
Adua was basically the italian commander snatch defeat from the jaws of victory In which conflict? The battle of Adua/Adowa in the first Italo-Ethiopian war; no cavalry for recon and no maps of the zone and due to that crucial force found themselfs first in the wrong place and later too distant from the main force and so easily isolated |
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