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Post by shadow007 on Jul 9, 2022 4:44:41 GMT
Three days before the start of WW2 the technology and equipment of the Allies/Soviets is upgraded to their 1945 version EXCLUDING Nukes. Ammo, fuel, etc also updated.
Wondering how this affects the Soviets' war plans since they benefit a lot from this scenario
Not sure which equipment of Poland, Yugoslavia, France, Greece, China, etc is replaced or with what 1945 equipment
Pondering how the US reacts to their entire technology base getting six years worth of upgrades a few days before WW2
Not sure how much of a benefit the Chinese get from this
Poland, Norway and France now get the P51 Mustangs, or the Soviet equivalent or something else or all of the above
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 9, 2022 12:07:48 GMT
Three days before the start of WW2 the technology and equipment of the Allies/Soviets is upgraded to their 1945 version EXCLUDING Nukes. Ammo, fuel, etc also updated. Wondering how this affects the Soviets' war plans since they benefit a lot from this scenario Not sure which equipment of Poland, Yugoslavia, France, Greece, China, etc is replaced or with what 1945 equipment Pondering how the US reacts to their entire technology base getting six years worth of upgrades a few days before WW2 Not sure how much of a benefit the Chinese get from this Poland, Norway and France now get the P51 Mustangs, or the Soviet equivalent or something else or all of the above
Assuming that the affected nations have the necessary training and doctrine to use the new weapons and also the infrastructure to maintain it and build new stock. Plus also that numbers are as in 1939 rather than 1945. Which raises the additional question is would capacity to build new stock include for items obtained from other nations - chiefly thinking of US L-L here. If not then a lot of nations, including the Soviets would have issues with maintaining their current forces.
I would say that France definitely counts as allied but they would be largely US equipped due to L-L along with probably some UK stuff. Which coupled with the condition of the UK forces is going to be very bad for the Germans if they try anything in 1940. Mind you with Bomber Command now equipped with Lancaster's and a lot of related electronics would Britain overcome its reluctance to really attack Germany as they could do a hell of a lot of damage.
Poland would be more difficult as their probably taken a step backward being limited to what the Home Army - which by 1945 was largely destroyed - would have unless you have the Polish 1939 army equipped with the same stuff as the Polish army in the west in which case their a hell of a lot more formidable. Then the Germans are in for a world of hurt when they attack despite their geographical advantages. In which case does Stalin decide to use his new toys or to play safe and let Nazi Germany hang.
This could lead to a much shorter and less bloody war depending on what Stalin does in 1939 and also how the various nations react to the new conditions. If Stalin decides to play safe in Europe then he could decide to really hurt Japan and there is no Pacific war as the Japanese are pushed out of China and Korea although how the western powers would respond to the Soviets occupying much of China I don't know.
If Stalin does stand by the M-R Pact and occupies eastern Poland then Poland will fall. He will probably seek to occupy the Baltic states and Finland while the allies are finishing off Germany and is likely with a 45 equipment pull to achieve success in Finland. I suspect in this case the western allies - which won't include the US of course - will not decide on war with Stalin.
Of course one butterfly is that fascist Italy is likely to survive here as with Germany getting mauled by the Poles and then stomped by the western allies Mussolini will stick firmly neutral.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 9, 2022 12:22:45 GMT
Not sure which equipment of Poland, Yugoslavia, France, Greece, China, etc is replaced or with what 1945 equipment British and Soviet 1945 equipment if we go with both the Polish Armed Forces in the East (Polish military forces established in the Soviet Union during World War II) and the Polish Armed Forces in the West (Polish military formations formed to fight alongside the Western Allies against Nazi Germany and its allies during World War II). |
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Post by raharris1973 on Jul 9, 2022 18:59:48 GMT
If Stalin decides to play safe in Europe then he could decide to really hurt Japan and there is no Pacific war as the Japanese are pushed out of China and Korea although how the western powers would respond to the Soviets occupying much of China I don't know. I don't think the west would complain about a Soviet occupation/liberation of China and Korea in 1939, especially if in China, Stalin is not formally usurping Chiang Kai-shek's authority and maintains a treaty relationship with him. Given their awful behavior since 1937 and even earlier, any beat-down of the Japanese, even by suspect and scary commies, would be seen as well-deserved. |
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Post by shadow007 on Jul 10, 2022 3:45:31 GMT
If Stalin decides to play safe in Europe then he could decide to really hurt Japan and there is no Pacific war as the Japanese are pushed out of China and Korea although how the western powers would respond to the Soviets occupying much of China I don't know. I don't think the west would complain about a Soviet occupation/liberation of China and Korea in 1939, especially if in China, Stalin is not formally usurping Chiang Kai-shek's authority and maintains a treaty relationship with him. Given their awful behavior since 1937 and even earlier, any beat-down of the Japanese, even by suspect and scary commies, would be seen as well-deserved. IRL the Soviets gave Manchuria and any equipment they got from the Japanese to Mao and his Communists (One of the main reasons Mao won the Chinese Civil War) Though in this scenario both Chang and Mao have their armies updated with 1945 tech |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 10, 2022 10:20:36 GMT
Just to clarify by allies is this meant any nation at any point in the war that was seen as an allied power to the United Nations? If so in theory it could include Italy and would definitely include Yugoslavia and Greece - going by the mention of nations such as China which wasn't formally allied on 1-9-39. Most importantly it would also include the US which again wasn't an allied power at the time, although its army and air force were pretty small at this point.
Also would the upgrade include items under construction, thinking mainly of warships as some of them take years to construct? If not only the existing USN fleet carriers are upgraded to Essex class but also the ones they have under construction then Japan's position has worsened considerable. Ditto with the RN.
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Post by shadow007 on Jul 10, 2022 15:28:44 GMT
Just to clarify by allies is this meant any nation at any point in the war that was seen as an allied power to the United Nations? If so in theory it could include Italy and would definitely include Yugoslavia and Greece - going by the mention of nations such as China which wasn't formally allied on 1-9-39. Most importantly it would also include the US which again wasn't an allied power at the time, although its army and air force were pretty small at this point.
Also would the upgrade include items under construction, thinking mainly of warships as some of them take years to construct? If not only the existing USN fleet carriers are upgraded to Essex class but also the ones they have under construction then Japan's position has worsened considerable. Ditto with the RN.
Italy doesn't count due to being one of the prime Axis members. The Allies/Soviets of WW2. Brazil does count as their soldiers fought the Fascist Italians. So does the Ethiopian Rebels. Navies are upgraded France, Norway, Soviets and Poland did have combat ships. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 11, 2022 15:20:00 GMT
Just to clarify by allies is this meant any nation at any point in the war that was seen as an allied power to the United Nations? If so in theory it could include Italy and would definitely include Yugoslavia and Greece - going by the mention of nations such as China which wasn't formally allied on 1-9-39. Most importantly it would also include the US which again wasn't an allied power at the time, although its army and air force were pretty small at this point.
Also would the upgrade include items under construction, thinking mainly of warships as some of them take years to construct? If not only the existing USN fleet carriers are upgraded to Essex class but also the ones they have under construction then Japan's position has worsened considerable. Ditto with the RN.
Italy doesn't count due to being one of the prime Axis members. The Allies/Soviets of WW2. Brazil does count as their soldiers fought the Fascist Italians. So does the Ethiopian Rebels. Navies are upgraded France, Norway, Soviets and Poland did have combat ships.
Thanks for clarifying. So anyone who was in either the allied or Soviet camps during WWI unless they had previously been an active/willing member of the Axis.
Not sure how much the navies of those 4 nations were developed during the war given the fact three of them were occupied for most of it and the Soviets suffered such a battering on land I don't think they had time and resources to build much by 1945. Although some L-L would apply.
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Post by shadow007 on Jul 12, 2022 0:54:51 GMT
Italy doesn't count due to being one of the prime Axis members. The Allies/Soviets of WW2. Brazil does count as their soldiers fought the Fascist Italians. So does the Ethiopian Rebels. Navies are upgraded France, Norway, Soviets and Poland did have combat ships.
Thanks for clarifying. So anyone who was in either the allied or Soviet camps during WWI unless they had previously been an active/willing member of the Axis.
Not sure how much the navies of those 4 nations were developed during the war given the fact three of them were occupied for most of it and the Soviets suffered such a battering on land I don't think they had time and resources to build much by 1945. Although some L-L would apply.
Their current ships have been upgraded as well. That includes submarines. |
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