lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 18, 2016 17:51:02 GMT
In 1813 a Coalition peace initiative designed by Austrian minister Metternich was offered to French Emperor Napoleon I after he previous suffered a decisive military defeat at the Battle of Leipzig, the Frankfurt proposals detailed that Napoleon would remain as Emperor of France, but France would be reduced to its "natural frontiers." The natural frontiers in this case were the Pyrenees mountains, the Alps mountains, and the Rhine River. France would retain control of Belgium, Savoy and the Rhineland (the west bank of the Rhine River), while giving up control of all the rest, including all of Spain, Poland and the Netherlands, and most of Italy and Germany. In OTL Napoleon, expecting to win the war, delayed too long and lost the opportunity to agree to the Frankfurt proposals, but what if he accepts the Frankfurt proposals believing it would give him time to rebuild and to strike again in the near future. Frankfurt proposals wikipedia articleFrance in its "natural borders" as of 1801 |
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 19, 2016 18:26:27 GMT
I have recently "Listened" to a biography of Josephine Bonapart (I have a long commute and listen to audio books on my mp3 player while driving. The libary has thousands for the same cost (zero) as any other libary book.)
This book had a lot of coverage of Napoleon's personnal relations with her, his family and others around him. The impression one gets of him and his personality is only a little better that any modern dictator.. say Bashar al-Assad.
Based on the impressions of Napoleon I got from this book, IMHO Napoleon would be unlikely to accept, and IF he felt compelled to, he would NOT give up much in Italy... it was his personal realm, at least in his mind....
And he would CERTAINLY break the agreement and start another war, most likely sooner rather than later....
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 19, 2016 18:32:54 GMT
Note, my post was not addressing Napoleon as a military leader, but as a head of state on his personal side. He was vain, grasping, and a thief. He had his army take art, money, etc. from country's (taken from both public and private holders, people hide their art from him) the army went through and a lot of what was taken went to him personally, as well as his wife and his family. France got a share.... but not always the Lion's share....
If he didn't actually rape women, his idea of seduction included not so vailed threats to the family, status and eveny safety of the women and her family, often husband (several sent on missions where the likelyhood of return was less than 50%). He would also use bribery.... the bribe was often honored, but sometime not.... fun guy. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2016 18:33:56 GMT
I have recently "Listened" to a biography of Josephine Bonapart (I have a long commute and listen to audio books on my mp3 player while driving. The libary has thousands for the same cost (zero) as any other libary book.) This book had a lot of coverage of Napoleon's personnal relations with her, his family and others around him. The impression one gets is only a little better that any modern dictator.. say Bashar al-Assad. Based on the impressions of Napoleon I got from this book, IMHO Napoleon would be unlikely to accept, and IF he felt compelled to, he would NOT give up much in Italy... it was his personal realm, at least in his mind.... And he would CERTAINLY break the agreement and start another war, most likely sooner rather than later.... So only because he did not want to lose much of Italy he decided not to accept the Frankfurt proposals, he was emperor of France, he could, if he had accepted waited some years to rebuild his army and then strike again. |
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 19, 2016 18:37:08 GMT
His ego was beyond control by 1813....
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 19, 2016 18:38:27 GMT
He made staements that the loss of ten's of thousands of men was as nothing compared to his (and Frances, in second place) glory.....
I don't think many today really understand why he was reviled so much in the 19th centruy... he was sort of that century's Hitler... without the racism and death camps... so he can be damned with the faint praise of "He wasn't as bad as Hitler>" |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 19, 2016 18:43:10 GMT
His ego was beyond control by 1813.... Just read more about it, it seems that he was also afraid that the people of France would revolt had he accepted it as he could not sell the proposal to his people. He made staements that the loss of ten's of thousands of men was as nothing compared to his (and Frances, in second place) glory.....
I don't think many today really understand why he was reviled so much in the 19th centruy... he was sort of that century's Hitler... without the racism and death camps... so he can be damned with the faint praise of "He wasn't as bad as Hitler>" Unlike Hitler you can visit his tomb in Paris. |
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 20, 2016 18:57:57 GMT
Yes, Napoleon was much more of a hero in France, he made her "Great". The French weren't too upset by art stolen from Italy being shown in Paris. And certainly, some of this is judging basically 18th century people by 21st century standards. Some of his excesses were much more common for Kings, Dukes and Earls....
And some of the things that were seen as terrible by many at the time, being a ruler without royal blood and crowning himself with his own hand, i.e. taking the crown from the pope's hand and crowning himself, are not seen as bad by modern eyes....
So no, he was NOT a Hitler... but he was a tyrant, in any era....
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 20, 2016 19:06:27 GMT
So no, he was NOT a Hitler... but he was a tyrant, in any era.... Do not tell the French that, they kinda consider him to be great. |
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Rematog
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Post by Rematog on Jan 20, 2016 20:12:49 GMT
"Great" is a matter of view point, no one denies he was a Great general. But was he a Great ruler? The civil reforms he enacted were huge and almost all positive. Being a tyrant can make you very effective. Look at the modernization of China under the communists. But, as a person... not so great, IMHO. Great and Tyrant are not mutually exclusive.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Feb 12, 2016 11:52:51 GMT
Guys
Interesting discussion. Agree with a lot of what Rematog says about Napoleon's character. Especially by this point in his life. Also one other factor is that for a long time the French army had lived off occupied territories. If he accepted the terms then the army, which would continue to be very large, if only because of the mutual mistrust, would have had to have been supported by the admittedly enlarged France. Even without the fact they were used to what was effectively widespread looting, this would have been deeply unpopular in France. As such I agree its unlikely he would have been willing to accept such a treaty, even if he only saw it as a breathing space before war resumed. Furthermore quite possibly he would have feared that the allies were getting him removed from Italy and other areas the French still occupied to weaken him before attacking again.
It might be that if he was killed, say in some accident or by assassination, then whoever succeeded him might well jump at such an offer and even mean to keep such a peace. In which case France is going to be a hell of a lot stronger in the 19thC as it contains the industrialised Belgium and parts of OTL Germany and gradually absorbs their population. Germany might unit faster under the perceived threat but its likely to be under Austria domination, which is going to result in a lot of butterflies. However if Napoleon is removed, even without a vicious succession struggle in France would the allies still make such an offer? Austria might as Napoleon's son by Marie Louise was around by this time so it might support a continued Napoleonic dynasty in France but the other powers might disagree. Especially since they might fear an Austrian-French alliance dominating the continent.
Steve
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futurist
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Post by futurist on Jun 19, 2016 2:18:10 GMT
In 1813 a Coalition peace initiative designed by Austrian minister Metternich was offered to French Emperor Napoleon I after he previous suffered a decisive military defeat at the Battle of Leipzig, the Frankfurt proposals detailed that Napoleon would remain as Emperor of France, but France would be reduced to its "natural frontiers." The natural frontiers in this case were the Pyrenees mountains, the Alps mountains, and the Rhine River. France would retain control of Belgium, Savoy and the Rhineland (the west bank of the Rhine River), while giving up control of all the rest, including all of Spain, Poland and the Netherlands, and most of Italy and Germany. In OTL Napoleon, expecting to win the war, delayed too long and lost the opportunity to agree to the Frankfurt proposals, but what if he accepts the Frankfurt proposals believing it would give him time to rebuild and to strike again in the near future. Frankfurt proposals wikipedia articleFrance in its "natural borders" as of 1801If Napoleon strikes again after accepting the 1813 Frankfurt Proposals, then chances are that both France and Napoleon will ultimately endure the same fates that they endured in real life. Specifically, France would be pushed back to its early 1790s borders while Napoleon would be sent to exile. If Napoleon becomes peaceful right after accepting the 1813 Frankfurt Proposals, though, then the Napoleonic Empire might certainly survive for a very long time. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 19, 2016 14:35:40 GMT
In 1813 a Coalition peace initiative designed by Austrian minister Metternich was offered to French Emperor Napoleon I after he previous suffered a decisive military defeat at the Battle of Leipzig, the Frankfurt proposals detailed that Napoleon would remain as Emperor of France, but France would be reduced to its "natural frontiers." The natural frontiers in this case were the Pyrenees mountains, the Alps mountains, and the Rhine River. France would retain control of Belgium, Savoy and the Rhineland (the west bank of the Rhine River), while giving up control of all the rest, including all of Spain, Poland and the Netherlands, and most of Italy and Germany. In OTL Napoleon, expecting to win the war, delayed too long and lost the opportunity to agree to the Frankfurt proposals, but what if he accepts the Frankfurt proposals believing it would give him time to rebuild and to strike again in the near future. Frankfurt proposals wikipedia articleFrance in its "natural borders" as of 1801If Napoleon strikes again after accepting the 1813 Frankfurt Proposals, then chances are that both France and Napoleon will ultimately endure the same fates that they endured in real life. Specifically, France would be pushed back to its early 1790s borders while Napoleon would be sent to exile. If Napoleon becomes peaceful right after accepting the 1813 Frankfurt Proposals, though, then the Napoleonic Empire might certainly survive for a very long time. I would agree that he would almost certainly consider it a truce at best. Although, with peace finally upon them he might have problems launching a new war without a lot of unrest. Also as Rematog mentions for most of the imperial period the French armies often lived off the lands they were in. I have read, that once he dismissed some Spanish troops who had initially been with his forces Wellington's invasion of southern France in 1814 was aided by the fact his forces, who were kept in good order and paid for items were more popular with many of the French peasants than the French troops who tended to just seize what they wanted. Such behaviour was acceptable to the French while they were stationed aboard but maintaining such armies inside France, whether by their traditional looting and/or by normal taxation will be very unpopular in France. |
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