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Post by justiniano on Jun 2, 2022 3:10:40 GMT
This King John. What if he was some miscarriage or something
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Post by halferking on Jun 2, 2022 11:05:53 GMT
Henry II of England & Eleanor of Aquitaine had five sons
(1) William IX, Count of Poitier: b. 1153 d. 1156
(2) Henry, the Young King: b. 1155 d. 1183
(3) Richard I, King of England: b. 1157 d. 1199
(4) Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany: b. 1158 d. 1186
(5) John, King of England: b. 1166 d. 1216
For Richard and John there was never any expectation that they would become King of England, but upon the death of William and Henry “The Young King” Richard suddenly found himself as Heir Apparent to the Throne of England and although this moved John closer to the Crown, he was still third eldest and therefore if Geoffrey survived Richard, he would become King and the line would pass through his family and with that any chance John had to become King becomes practically non-existent. As it was Geoffrey died before Richard I leaving John as the only surviving male heir of Henry II, King of England. John naturally ascended the Throne.
If John predeceases his siblings (in the ALT) and Richard dies after Geoffrey (as in OTL) and has no heirs without John as the oldest surviving direct male relative of the King, the Throne passes to Geoffrey’s offspring in this case Arthur I, Duke of Brittany.
Henry also had three daughters
(1) Matilda of England, Duchess of Saxony and Bavaria: b. 1156 d. 1189
(2) Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile and Toledo: b. 1161 d. 1214
(3) Joan of England, Queen of Sicily and Countess Consort of Toulouse: b. 1156 d.1199
If for some reason the line of succession does not pass on down Geoffrey’s line then as the eldest daughter of Henry II Matilda’s eldest son (OTL Henry V, Count Palatine of the Rhine) would have a claim to the Throne of England as a direct surviving male heir to Henry II and the line would continue down her family.
So basically your timeline could go in any direction.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 3, 2022 10:39:57 GMT
Henry II of England & Eleanor of Aquitaine had five sons (1) William IX, Count of Poitier: b. 1153 d. 1156 (2) Henry, the Young King: b. 1155 d. 1183 (3) Richard I, King of England: b. 1157 d. 1199 (4) Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany: b. 1158 d. 1186 (5) John, King of England: b. 1166 d. 1216 For Richard and John there was never any expectation that they would become King of England, but upon the death of William and Henry “The Young King” Richard suddenly found himself as Heir Apparent to the Throne of England and although this moved John closer to the Crown, he was still third eldest and therefore if Geoffrey survived Richard, he would become King and the line would pass through his family and with that any chance John had to become King becomes practically non-existent. As it was Geoffrey died before Richard I leaving John as the only surviving male heir of Henry II, King of England. John naturally ascended the Throne. If John predeceases his siblings (in the ALT) and Richard dies after Geoffrey (as in OTL) and has no heirs without John as the oldest surviving direct male relative of the King, the Throne passes to Geoffrey’s offspring in this case Arthur I, Duke of Brittany. Henry also had three daughters (1) Matilda of England, Duchess of Saxony and Bavaria: b. 1156 d. 1189 (2) Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile and Toledo: b. 1161 d. 1214 (3) Joan of England, Queen of Sicily and Countess Consort of Toulouse: b. 1156 d.1199 If for some reason the line of succession does not pass on down Geoffrey’s line then as the eldest daughter of Henry II Matilda’s eldest son (OTL Henry V, Count Palatine of the Rhine) would have a claim to the Throne of England as a direct surviving male heir to Henry II and the line would continue down her family. So basically your timeline could go in any direction.
One other butterfly comes to mind. Assuming no other changes between John's non-birth and Richard becoming king what happens when he goes on crusade? Who holds the reins in the empire? Geoffrey probably if he lasted longed but if he dies earlier as OTL his son is still an infant so another regent or council would be required. Also assuming Richard is still captured on his return and held hostage in Austria does that person get him out earlier - according to some legends John wanted to retain power and hence delayed paying ransom - or possibly even make a bid for the throne himself?
Another obvious butterfly is that Richard doesn't get so careless or is simply a bit luckier and doesn't get hit by that crossbow bolt. In which case how much longer might he live and could he have children?
Mind you a clear link between the Plantagenet line between England and Brittany could make for some interesting future Anglo-French relations.  |
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Post by halferking on Jun 4, 2022 18:57:14 GMT
Henry II of England & Eleanor of Aquitaine had five sons (1) William IX, Count of Poitier: b. 1153 d. 1156 (2) Henry, the Young King: b. 1155 d. 1183 (3) Richard I, King of England: b. 1157 d. 1199 (4) Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany: b. 1158 d. 1186 (5) John, King of England: b. 1166 d. 1216 For Richard and John there was never any expectation that they would become King of England, but upon the death of William and Henry “The Young King” Richard suddenly found himself as Heir Apparent to the Throne of England and although this moved John closer to the Crown, he was still third eldest and therefore if Geoffrey survived Richard, he would become King and the line would pass through his family and with that any chance John had to become King becomes practically non-existent. As it was Geoffrey died before Richard I leaving John as the only surviving male heir of Henry II, King of England. John naturally ascended the Throne. If John predeceases his siblings (in the ALT) and Richard dies after Geoffrey (as in OTL) and has no heirs without John as the oldest surviving direct male relative of the King, the Throne passes to Geoffrey’s offspring in this case Arthur I, Duke of Brittany. Henry also had three daughters (1) Matilda of England, Duchess of Saxony and Bavaria: b. 1156 d. 1189 (2) Eleanor of England, Queen of Castile and Toledo: b. 1161 d. 1214 (3) Joan of England, Queen of Sicily and Countess Consort of Toulouse: b. 1156 d.1199 If for some reason the line of succession does not pass on down Geoffrey’s line then as the eldest daughter of Henry II Matilda’s eldest son (OTL Henry V, Count Palatine of the Rhine) would have a claim to the Throne of England as a direct surviving male heir to Henry II and the line would continue down her family. So basically your timeline could go in any direction.
One other butterfly comes to mind. Assuming no other changes between John's non-birth and Richard becoming king what happens when he goes on crusade? Who holds the reins in the empire? Geoffrey probably if he lasted longed but if he dies earlier as OTL his son is still an infant so another regent or council would be required. Also assuming Richard is still captured on his return and held hostage in Austria does that person get him out earlier - according to some legends John wanted to retain power and hence delayed paying ransom - or possibly even make a bid for the throne himself?
Another obvious butterfly is that Richard doesn't get so careless or is simply a bit luckier and doesn't get hit by that crossbow bolt. In which case how much longer might he live and could he have children?
Mind you a clear link between the Plantagenet line between England and Brittany could make for some interesting future Anglo-French relations.  Richard appointed William Longchamp as Chancellor of England to govern in his name. Longchamp was a Norman and had absolutely no time for the English or their customs and this naturally angered the English. John rebelled forcing Longchamp into exile in France, but when the rebellion failed, and Richard was released from his captivity in Germany Longchamp was returned to power. If Richard I appoints Longchamp as Lord Chancellor of England, in ATL, and events unfold as they did in OTL then opposition may come in the form of Matilda of England who at 34 rather than be the leader would instead be the architect of a rebellion and would rally English nobles under her banner in the just cause of defending her brother and the Throne of England from a ‘usurper’. In OTL Longchamp ‘ruled’ between 1190 and 1191. Longchamp had shared Office of Justiciar with a man named Hugh de Puiset who had authority over the north of England (north of the Humber) and William Longchamp had authority over the rest of the Kingdom. William had successfully out-manoeuvred Hugh and had him arrested on some trumped-up charge of ‘overstepping his authority’. William then assumed sole holder of Office giving him great power. It would in ATL depend on whether Hugh sides with Matilda or not. He did not side with John.
If Matilda is successful in her rebellion, then she would look to form a Regency Council or if Hugh sides with her then perhaps appoint him as Lord Chancellor of England. Hugh is after all nephew of King Stephen and Henry of Blois. Life expectancy, from what I have read, for a healthy adult was about mid-forties (of course people lived longer than that). Richard “The Lionheart” was in his early forties when he died so it is possible that he could have lived into his fifties or older, given the fact that he was the King and therefore had better access to medicines etc. Richard is not known to have fathered any children, but apparently, he did acknowledge an illegitimate son Philip of Cognac although we don’t know who Philip’s mother was. It is thought that his wife, Berengaria of Navarre Queen of England, never saw her Kingdom and not much is known about her life therefore we don’t know if she capable of carrying a pregnancy to full term. Of the marriage Berengaria is thought to have truly loved Richard, but it is not certain that love was returned, and Richard may have seen the union as one of politics rather than love. According to Archbishop Rodrigo Jimenez de Rada of Toledo said “as a most praiseworthy widow and stayed for the most part in the city of Le Mans, which she held as part of her marriage dower, devoting herself to almsgiving, prayer and good works, witnessing as an example to all women of chastity and religion and in the same city she came to the end of her days with a happy death” This was written about ten years after her death – so it would seem that she did not have children. If Richard “The Lionheart” and Berengaria of Navarre had children, then succession would naturally follow their line.
As for the Angevin Empire John lost much of the Plantagenet’s lands in France so going forward the Monarch in the ATL will suffer the same fate and he will rule over England only. |
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Post by Max Sinister on Jun 5, 2022 15:06:58 GMT
In the long run, several kings of England named John, because there's no bad precedent.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 5, 2022 17:51:48 GMT
In the long run, several kings of England named John, because there's no bad precedent.
Well even after him one of Edward III's son's was called John and with some butterflies he could have become king. As it was he was the father of Henry IV.
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