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Post by justiniano on Jun 29, 2022 20:42:38 GMT
I would remind you that your original words, before you tried to shift the goalposts, were “Since Russia is his Ally he can use the Caspian Sea. And they move them to the ocean like this”, followed by a completely pointless modern video with no relation to how ships were launched in that period. We then shifted from building and training on lakes and the Caspian to Trieste. On the second point: British ships didn’t just sit in their bases and play whist. They operated forward in close blockade of French ports and monitoring of the same. The first thing we notice about Trieste is that it is in a freaking gulf. A gulf, mind you, with a narrow opening that can be covered by a small blockade fleet/fleet of observation. Further back, we have the Straits of Otranto, which have been more than a little important over time. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_campaign_of_1807–1814This is what the British did when there wasn’t a profound threat or massive shift of resources to the area. Please let this go; your lack of knowledge and understanding about naval matters is leading you progressively up the garden path. If they get too close won't they be in firing range of land-based artillery?
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Post by simon darkshade on Jun 30, 2022 0:25:02 GMT
The range of the most substantive coastal gun of the era was 1 mile.
The distance across the mouth of the Gulf of Trieste is 12 miles.
That’s another fail.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 1, 2022 23:39:45 GMT
The range of the most substantive coastal gun of the era was 1 mile. Was the distance of the british RN's guns longer than that?
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 2, 2022 2:09:17 GMT
Not. 32pdrs had a theoretical maximum range of 2900 yards, whilst the Frog 36pdr could theoretically make 3700 yards, but both were limited in practical terms to a mile. Anything beyond that is asking too much of the technology of the day.
Hence the general process of not remaining as stationary targets, but moving around at sea and beyond the range of any land based guns. The geographic circumstances of the Gulf of Trieste are that it can be blockaded safely at the mouth, observed safely at the mouth and even penetrated in an attack down the centre.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 3, 2022 1:26:19 GMT
ok, so since he couldn't train his navy at all. How was Napoleon able to conquer Egypt?
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 3, 2022 3:02:22 GMT
He was able to overthrow the Mamluks and achieve tactical success on the ground. Big deal.
He had to withdraw back to France with his tail between his legs as his strategy was flawed. He could not control the sea and thus could not support his ground forces to even hold Egypt, let alone expand his campaign to India. This, Spain and Russia suggest that Bonaparte lacked a strategic logistic perspective in some of his campaigns and that he certainly did not understand sea power.
The end result of the campaign was ~30,000 casualties and the survivors surrendering to the British. That does not smack of success.
Note that 1798 is before his ‘period’. This was the leftovers of the French Royal Navy that were decisively beaten at the Battle of the Nile. It was not his purview to train them at all.
This seems to be a completely tangential issue. The French were able to conduct basic naval training without fantasies of hiding in the Caspian Sea or Trieste, but they did not have the open seas or the freedom of them. There is a reason they lost every major/significant naval battle of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars over a whole bloody generation.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 3, 2022 18:16:21 GMT
So how was boney able to get back to europe after the battle of the nile?
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 3, 2022 22:46:00 GMT
He made his way on the frigate Muiron, cutting and running to leave his army behind. Whilst there is no definitive proof, there have been arguments made that the British let him through tacitly or directly.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jul 8, 2022 20:13:19 GMT
He made his way on the frigate Muiron, cutting and running to leave his army behind. Whilst there is no definitive proof, there have been arguments made that the British let him through tacitly or directly. But why should they? Removing him would have weakened revolutionary France in a way killing Hitler wouldn't have for Nazi Germany.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 9, 2022 2:32:39 GMT
It would end the Mediterranean campaign, return his focus to Europe and create the circumstances to end the whole French threat, not just one leader. This was 1798, not the era when Boney was unquestioned Emperor.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jul 14, 2022 22:56:56 GMT
I'd have guessed that without him, the Directory would be pretty screwed. The next coalition (war) is going to come.
On an unrelated note, and I'm a bit late with this: AFAIK he sold Louisiana because he had lost Haiti - apparently maintaining connections from France to L. would be too hard without having Haiti.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Jul 15, 2022 10:43:52 GMT
I'd have guessed that without him, the Directory would be pretty screwed. The next coalition (war) is going to come. On an unrelated note, and I'm a bit late with this: AFAIK he sold Louisiana because he had lost Haiti - apparently maintaining connections from France to L. would be too hard without having Haiti.
I have read that he was relying on the army that was largely destroyed in Haiti - chiefly by disease - to secure Louisiana afterwards. Plus knowing he was going to clash again with Britain he also knew it would be difficult if not impossible to defend in the face of the RN and hence was more willing to sell it to the US.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jul 15, 2022 19:43:25 GMT
Yes, the lost army was a problem as well.
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Post by justiniano on Jul 17, 2022 17:31:43 GMT
simon darkshade , This idea just came to me. Boney could have used the money from selling louisiana to reform the navies of Russia, sweden, & denmark-norway. Or since He'd likely be an ally of Mehmed ali (ruler of egypt) since he'd be a russian ally, and russia & Mehmed ali were both enemies of the ottomans, he could have paid Mehmed to use his navy and reform it and upgrade it
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 17, 2022 18:16:26 GMT
1.) Foreign policy doesn’t work that way. A friendlier approach does not equal getting full use of their fleets for whatever you want. 2.) Mohammad Ali of Egypt was not an Ottoman enemy in 1805, but rather their loyal Wali and Pasha. He came in after Boney was defeated…by the British and Turks. 3.) The money from Louisiana was the equivalent of 3 million pounds. How far do you think that will go split between multiple fleets? Not very far at all. Britain was spending 10-12 million on the RN per year. 4.) The Egyptian Navy? en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sailing_ships_of_the_Ottoman_Empire#Egypt_Provinceen.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Egyptian_sail_frigatesAll of them are post Bonaparte built by Ali as he moved towards his attempted usurper role.
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