lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 68,010 
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 16, 2023 22:12:01 GMT
At 12:01AM Bonn time, as the day of Christmas Eve opens in 1988, West Germany (excl. West Berlin) arrives at the same moment on Christmas Eve, 1940. Everything that is in the Bonn Republic (excl. the airspace and all biological/chemical/nuclear weapons and those weapons' spares) comes along for the ride. Where is majority of Wehrmacht located at the time? I guess a lot of it is going to be overwritten by new Germany. The new German government calls upon the remaining Wehrmacht troops to surrender... which they likely do after some time given cessation of supplies. Germany then gives independence to France, Poland, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg... WW2 ends in 1940. West Berlin was de jure not part of West Germany, lacked any sovereignty, and was under military occupation until German reunification in 1990. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,843
Likes: 13,230
|
Post by stevep on Dec 17, 2023 0:19:27 GMT
At 12:01AM Bonn time, as the day of Christmas Eve opens in 1988, West Germany (excl. West Berlin) arrives at the same moment on Christmas Eve, 1940. Everything that is in the Bonn Republic (excl. the airspace and all biological/chemical/nuclear weapons and those weapons' spares) comes along for the ride. Where is majority of Wehrmacht located at the time? I guess a lot of it is going to be overwritten by new Germany. The new German government calls upon the remaining Wehrmacht troops to surrender... which they likely do after some time given cessation of supplies. Germany then gives independence to France, Poland, Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg... WW2 ends in 1940.
A lot of it would be elsewhere, including occupying western Europe and preparing for operations in eastern Europe or the Balkans but their definitely going to suffer badly, especially with the forces, both W German and other NATO positioned in W Germany at this time.
There's going to be the issue of what happens to the eastern lands that were occupied by the Polish border being pushed western, i.e. E Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia and possibly also the Sudetenland as those areas are predominantly Germany settled and there might not be the same basis/willingness to see the Germans of those areas deported. Also what happens with assorted high level members of the regime including the old question of can people be held responsible for crimes they haven't committed yet? Not to mention what you do with the rest of the European Axis and relations with Stalin. Furthermore how does the US react to both having substantial military forces suddenly in W Germany and also news of the war with Japan?
Germany is going to be a mess with its western half being 'modern' at least to the up-timers and democratic as well as technology the most advances region in the world while eastern Germany, which is likely to be substantially bigger here and Austria are going to be backwards and strongly Nazi influenced so de-Nazification could be a hell of a lot more difficult.
Of course with a lot more Jews surviving but probably deeply distrustful of their neighbours how does this affect possible emigration to Palestine?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 2:19:54 GMT
[just realised i needed to reload. oops]
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 68,010
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 17, 2023 6:50:41 GMT
[just realised i needed to reload. oops] |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 7:12:49 GMT
no no i was pointing out i was answering but it was out of date as edits had been made and my post was not needed after all.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Member is Online
Posts: 68,010
Likes: 49,410
|
Post by lordroel on Dec 17, 2023 7:30:14 GMT
no no i was pointing out i was answering but it was out of date as edits had been made and my post was not needed after all. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 8:40:11 GMT
When LBJ dies in 1973, his mind and that of his First Lady, Lady Bird Johnson, are copied to the bodies of Bill and Hillary Clinton at noon on 1/20/1993. The ASB brings them up to speed on the events of the USA and the world in the last 20 years as well as things about the Clinton's friends and family so they don't get found out quickly and then leaves them to in this later decade that they are now in.
|
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Dec 17, 2023 10:02:46 GMT
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 12:23:48 GMT
The Ipatiev House and its prisoners but not the Bolsheviks - July 15th 1918 to July 15th 1993?
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,843
Likes: 13,230
|
Post by stevep on Dec 17, 2023 16:54:31 GMT
Well on the down side: a) Belgium lacks the OTL defences, or any real preparation for an attack on their western border from Germany. Also their markedly better infrastructure, once Imperial Germany catches on, could speed the latter's advance. b) They have a smaller army than OTL 1914 and a lot of it is either lost in the ISOT or caught in the middle of western Germany which would cause confusion for both sides but the isolated and surprised Belgium forces are likely to be defeated eventually.
On the plus side: a) Once Belgium has some idea what has happened can respond fairly quickly because of their better communications infrastructure. If up-time forces in Germany are brought along then there is the chance of communications between those and their colleagues in Belgium as well which could help them all. b) Although smaller Belgium 1989 forces are hugely more powerful than the Imperial Germany, at least while supplies last. Long ranged artillery with modern targeting facilities could be lethal especially if aimed at HQs and the like. Armour and air attack will come as a massive shock to the Germans and any pause will enable the Belgians to link up with the down-side allied forces. They could then provide a lot of vital information such as terminating as quickly as possible the French attacks in the south and switching forces north to meet the main German drive, albeit that down-timers could be reluctant to change their plans initially under those circumstances.
Overall the war should be over quicker, possibly a couple of years quicker, if Belgium can react rapidly to the invasion and restrict the German forces and then aided by the allies possibly drive them back. This would come as a hell of a shock to the Germans and might even make for a quick peace settlement. If not Belgium has military capacity, if largely I think for small arms which could be hugely beneficial for the allies as would holding at least the northern half of Belgium. Furthermore the technical and doctrinal as well as historical information would be a huge benefit.
Of course the impact will go far, far beyond WWI. Information on how the world changes and especially possibly social and political changes is going to have a big impact on the 1914 world.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Dec 17, 2023 18:13:35 GMT
Well on the down side: a) Belgium lacks the OTL defences, or any real preparation for an attack on their western border from Germany. Also their markedly better infrastructure, once Imperial Germany catches on, could speed the latter's advance. b) They have a smaller army than OTL 1914 and a lot of it is either lost in the ISOT or caught in the middle of western Germany which would cause confusion for both sides but the isolated and surprised Belgium forces are likely to be defeated eventually.
On the plus side: a) Once Belgium has some idea what has happened can respond fairly quickly because of their better communications infrastructure. If up-time forces in Germany are brought along then there is the chance of communications between those and their colleagues in Belgium as well which could help them all. b) Although smaller Belgium 1989 forces are hugely more powerful than the Imperial Germany, at least while supplies last. Long ranged artillery with modern targeting facilities could be lethal especially if aimed at HQs and the like. Armour and air attack will come as a massive shock to the Germans and any pause will enable the Belgians to link up with the down-side allied forces. They could then provide a lot of vital information such as terminating as quickly as possible the French attacks in the south and switching forces north to meet the main German drive, albeit that down-timers could be reluctant to change their plans initially under those circumstances.
Overall the war should be over quicker, possibly a couple of years quicker, if Belgium can react rapidly to the invasion and restrict the German forces and then aided by the allies possibly drive them back. This would come as a hell of a shock to the Germans and might even make for a quick peace settlement. If not Belgium has military capacity, if largely I think for small arms which could be hugely beneficial for the allies as would holding at least the northern half of Belgium. Furthermore the technical and doctrinal as well as historical information would be a huge benefit.
Of course the impact will go far, far beyond WWI. Information on how the world changes and especially possibly social and political changes is going to have a big impact on the 1914 world.
The Germans crossed the border 0802AM 4 August 1914.
The German Armies were foot-marching. The Belgians have a rather large Airforce capable of Nuclear Weapons delivery stationed at Kleine Brogel Air Base - held by USAF 7361 Sqn. on base - but if the Imperial Germans get close.. With the large foot-marching German formations dropping Napalm on these would possibly take out the First Aid and Medical units or at least overwhelm them with casualties. Seeing your comrades burn isn't a nice experience. The Belgian Army in Belgium is mainly a reserve mobilization formation so it need the Airforce to buy time to get units set up.
The major part of 1 Corps is in Central West Germany. It has a lot of tanks and Kanonpz.Jäger so should have some possibility of moving home. Also the Corps logistics should have some ability in getting it back. The armoured engineers have bridgelaying tanks so possible to cross smaller waterobstacles but I am rather uncertain regarding the Rhine - and the possiblity of the bridges to carry the Tanks. Though the Germans used to build seriously.
All those missile units will be of little use in the battle with the crews pressed into Infantry service.
Besides the four ASW Frigates the Belgian Navy is limited in use because of its specialization - however the Frigates will be a serious boost to Allied Counter Submarine war once they get some more modern equipment produced for the Allied Navies.
|
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Dec 17, 2023 18:54:02 GMT
Egypt from 360 BC (rule of Nactenebo II, the last pharaoh )ISOT to 3000 BC.
Egypt in 360 BC is already in the Iron Age. What tech level should the world be in 1000 BC in an averagely optimistic scenario?
Let's assume iron metallirgy starts spreading right away after the ISOT.
|
|
575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
Posts: 2,734
Likes: 4,110
|
Post by 575 on Dec 17, 2023 19:45:31 GMT
Belgium of 10 May 1940 ISOT to 4 August 1914 - when the Imperial German Army crosses the border it is opposed not by 150-220,000 man in 6 Divisions and a Cavalry Division Belgian Army of 1914 but a 500-600,000 man Belgian Army with 71 mono-and biplane fighters, 16 monoplane bombers, 318 biplane observation/light bombers, 333 trainer aircraft which could be armed with mg's or a observer with light bombs, 95 Airfields, 19 Infantry Divisions, 1 Chasseur Ardennais Light Infantry Division, 2 Cavalry Divisions, 1 Cav. Brigade, 1 Tank Company, 15 Bicycle/motorized Regiments/Battalions, a small Navy of 30 very light units.
In 1914 the Belgian Infantry Divisions had 48 75mm Artillery Guns and 18 Machineguns. In 1940 a Belgian Infantry Division had 36 75mm Guns and 12 105mm Artillery Guns, 24 76mm Mortars, 52 47mm Anti-Tank Guns, 8 20mm Madsen Autocannon, 98 Light Machineguns and 36 Heavy Machinguns. In addition the Corps of 2-3 Divisions would have an Artillery Regiment of 2-8 Artillery Battalions of 105mm, 120mm Guns, 155mm Howitzers and an AA-Battalion with 75mm AA-guns.
Do the Belgians manage to stop the Imperial German 1., 2. and 3. Armies of 750,000 troops advance through Belgium?
|
|
|
|
Post by Otto Kretschmer on Dec 17, 2023 19:57:07 GMT
Belgium of 10 May 1940 ISOT to 4 August 1914 - when the Imperial German Army crosses the border it is opposed not by 150-220,000 man in 6 Divisions and a Cavalry Division Belgian Army of 1914 but a 500-600,000 man Belgian Army with 71 mono-and biplane fighters, 16 monoplane bombers, 318 biplane observation/light bombers, 333 trainer aircraft which could be armed with mg's or a observer with light bombs, 95 Airfields, 19 Infantry Divisions, 1 Chasseur Ardennais Light Infantry Division, 2 Cavalry Divisions, 1 Cav. Brigade, 1 Tank Company, 15 Bicycle/motorized Regiments/Battalions, a small Navy of 30 very light units. In 1914 the Belgian Infantry Divisions had 48 75mm Artillery Guns and 18 Machineguns. In 1940 a Belgian Infantry Division had 36 75mm Guns and 12 105mm Artillery Guns, 24 76mm Mortars, 52 47mm Anti-Tank Guns, 8 20mm Madsen Autocannon, 98 Light Machineguns and 36 Heavy Machinguns. In addition the Corps of 2-3 Divisions would have an Artillery Regiment of 2-8 Artillery Battalions of 105mm, 120mm Guns, 155mm Howitzers and an AA-Battalion with 75mm AA-guns. Do the Belgians manage to stop the Imperial German 1., 2. and 3. Armies of 750,000 troops advance through Belgium? I'd say yes - the Germans are bogged down in Belgium and the war reaches a stalemate much faster than OTL. The most interesting aspect - what experience can the Belgians share with the UK and France? Can they convince them that tank is the thing needed to break the trench warfare deadlock? Can Belgian trucks be reverse engineered and put into mass profuction, resulting in better supply for the Entente? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
Likes:
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2023 5:24:27 GMT
Saddam's Iraq: from 1984 to 2014 when ISIS rose?
To add a little sugar to the situation and balance a bad regime with a good one: progressive/"wet" Liberal Party of Australia PM John Gorton's Australia from the day he is sworn in as PM in January 1968 also to the moment ISIS rises into prominence in 2014.
Airspace, land, waterways or surrounding waters up to the three-mile nautical limit... everything in those two countries comes for the ride.
|
|
