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Post by livingwill on Aug 9, 2022 20:38:14 GMT
I don't know about Toombs or Cobb having the temperament, but that might be because I haven't researched them as much as I did Davis. A.S. Johnston was quite admired by Davis, but was also a capable general. One of Davis's weaknesses was his admiration of a person could blind him to their faults, or their disagreements with him on things. Check out Davis's books, plus Lochlainn Seabrook's books on Davis. Brion McClanahan has a few podcasts on him that might be work listening to as well. How was AS Johnston capable? Fort Henry was poorly positioned which he should have known. He then spit his troops between Donaldson and the field army instead of concentrating in one or the other. He then played regimental commander instead of army commander at Shilo.
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Post by American hist on Sept 28, 2022 2:46:23 GMT
The Mormon war doesn’t have much to do with anything and this is a straw man argument or a red herring. I hate Jefferson Davis who in the confederacy dose not!? Unless you are apart of Davis cronies. William Quantrill Was a nobody before the American civil War , but A genocidal man would probably be far too much even for most of the American population who hated Mormons. Someone has said William Quantrill should’ve been hang but that has nothing to do with the current discussion.
Oh so Jefferson Davis might have been a good quartermaster of the confederate armies? I think that he would’ve been a good secretary of war during the peacetime it makes sense that the armies should be given repeating rifles, experiment with camels out In the desert. He saw the need for inventions and while he has a problem with picking his cronies this could somewhat alter a bit.
During the Mexican American war Jefferson Davis was personally brave and at the battle of Buena Vist when the second Indiana volunteers got routed Jefferson Davis helped organize the soldiers into shape. Many perhaps Most Civil War generals do not have military experience prior to the conflict and even some of the best military generals made many mistakes during the Civil War Ulysses S Grant Belmont, Robert E Lee in West Virginia, Albert Sidney Johnston The early engagements prior to Shiloh.
What’s the new Jefferson Davis who was famous for his v formation which he used during the Mexican American war. I could see a lot of political generals such as Burnside being fooled into walking into a trap set by Jefferson Davis until the union troops are closed in with a V. Of course the formation isn’t hard to outflank. I could see Jefferson Davis engaging in The same battlefield tactics where the general on the union side could easily predict what he would do.
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Post by American hist on Jan 10, 2023 19:19:21 GMT
Yes Jefferson Davis wasn't a good manager as he wasted a lot or resources deffending everywhere at once however it would be difficult purposly abondening stratgic or tactical insignificant areas as the populace didnt prefer this. Every inch of land was money and areas of recruitment when it held people. I hope to revive this discussion about Jefferson Davis. Davis provided the offensive defensive strategy which has been contested by military historians both favorably and negatively. miletus12, isnt pillow marked as one of they worst civil war generals,or do you purpose he would have done better behind a desk leading? miletus12, Davis could have been better without question however Davis was correct in switching from a bullet a minute rifle to repeating rifles.Deffening everywhere at once isnt a great idea ,but before the fighting has erupted it could be melomated to send every force to a potential war theater and to increase fort constructed had the rest of the south held of from succession for a little bit. In his time during mexico davis used his famous V formation where some incompetent political general would be flloish enough to fall for the trap such Ambrose e burnside, but not someone like gerge h Thomas and probably not even someone like general hooker. Davis kept incompatent genrals too long,but beaguard,albert Sydney johnston,josehph e Johnstons and to a much lesser extent brag tallents had to be used in very specific instances
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Post by American hist on Jan 10, 2023 19:31:31 GMT
I don't know about Toombs or Cobb having the temperament, but that might be because I haven't researched them as much as I did Davis. A.S. Johnston was quite admired by Davis, but was also a capable general. One of Davis's weaknesses was his admiration of a person could blind him to their faults, or their disagreements with him on things. Check out Davis's books, plus Lochlainn Seabrook's books on Davis. Brion McClanahan has a few podcasts on him that might be work listening to as well. How was AS Johnston capable? Fort Henry was poorly positioned which he should have known. He then spit his troops between Donaldson and the field army instead of concentrating in one or the other. He then played regimental commander instead of army commander at Shilo. At Shiloh Beauregard largely disrupted Johnston's original attack plan and the Frenchmen's troops were late delaying the attack allowing buell to eventually meet up with grant. The real problem was Kentucky's neutrality being violated by Davis pick general Polk. Davis and lincoln had already agreed to respect Kentucky neutrality, but i might argue Lincoln was more deviant along with other union commanders plans, but it was the south that first broke they agreement. placing river Fort in Columbus would have been a much more suitable area of defense for a river fort, but Johnston refused construction as this would violate the states neutrality
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 10, 2023 21:37:25 GMT
Yes Jefferson Davis wasn't a good manager as he wasted a lot or resources deffending everywhere at once however it would be difficult purposly abondening stratgic or tactical insignificant areas as the populace didnt prefer this. Every inch of land was money and areas of recruitment when it held people. I hope to revive this discussion about Jefferson Davis. Davis provided the offensive defensive strategy which has been contested by military historians both favorably and negatively. miletus12 , isnt pillow marked as one of they worst civil war generals,or do you purpose he would have done better behind a desk leading? miletus12 , Davis could have been better without question however Davis was correct in switching from a bullet a minute rifle to repeating rifles.Deffening everywhere at once isnt a great idea ,but before the fighting has erupted it could be melomated to send every force to a potential war theater and to increase fort constructed had the rest of the south held of from succession for a little bit. In his time during mexico davis used his famous V formation where some incompetent political general would be flloish enough to fall for the trap such Ambrose e burnside, but not someone like gerge h Thomas and probably not even someone like general hooker. Davis kept incompatent genrals too long,but beaguard,albert Sydney johnston,josehph e Johnstons and to a much lesser extent brag tallents had to be used in very specific instances What I get from this is that you think Jefferson Davis should be adjudged by some tactical military metric. BUT, he was a tactical amateur, an operational incompetent, and a poor strategist. And that is not exactly how I analyze him, though those are parts of what I think made him an idiot. At the level of a national executive in a multipolar power center government, the chief executive has to be a people manager and a team creator and a consensus builder. At each level in those political skills, Jefferson Davis failed. He could not get the state executives to cooperate. He angered his congress, who resisted his attempts to accrue decree power unto himself Davis was too Mississippi centric. He made things and people issues "personal". He could not compromise. He lost his temper easily. He would not adapt or take good advice. He could not make do and he most certainly made enemies so virulent that his opponents were more out to get him than "to save the Confederacy from that fool, Davis." Worst civil war generals is such an open ended and bottomless pit of stupidity that I really do not want to look inside. You can easily lose Gideon Johnson Pillow among the bigger noises of Confederate imbeciles; like Braxton Bragg, Robert E. Lee, John Bell Hood, Leonidas Polk, Pierre Gustave Toutant-Beauregard, James Ewell Brown "Jeb" Stuart, Ambrose Powell Hill Jr., John C. Pemberton, George Pickett et al. Old "GD"^1 as his troops called him, was a coward and a poltroon who deserted his command at Donelson and should have been shot for it by the rules of the day, but he was a "friend of Jeff Davis" and skated out to show a similar cowardly deserter performance at the Battle of Murfreesboro after the Fort Donelson disaster. Pillow was a weak reed, but Jeff Davis picked him and stuck with him, so you get two idiots for one composite answer and for the same exact reasons. Slavocrats were at their ideological hearts, nonadaptive totalitarian cowards. %1 "Old GD Pillow" was not "Godfrey Daniels"... M. Postscript. The Vee formation only works as long as the enemy does not meet it with an inverted VEE like the Mexicans did at Buena Vista when they shot the Mississippi Rifles to bits. Jeff Davis never could read ground for a flip, or understand converging fires. Did I mention that he was a lousy engineer?
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Post by American hist on Jan 11, 2023 2:31:45 GMT
miletus12, I wonder who you consider were some of the best generals of the confederacy? Well, I would agree with you on Davis incompetence, but I do think he would’ve had a better chance elsewhere. If Robert E Lee, or Stonewall Jackson and JB Stewart are so bad of commanders then how come they kept winning battles in your opinion? Well General Robert e lee was known for being too aggressive. The problem with Robert E Lee he was very good winning battles, but they come at a high price.
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jan 11, 2023 5:47:43 GMT
If Robert E Lee, or Stonewall Jackson and JB Stewart are so bad of commanders then how come they kept winning battles in your opinion? McClellan and Pope and Hooker. McClellan was a moral coward who could not close the deal at Antietam, John Pope was an incompetent braggart loudmouth, who could not read a map and thus blundered into an otherwise witless surprised but happy Lee, who accidentally sat on high ground, who promptly shot Pope's army up at Second Bull Run. while Hooker's excuse was that he was hit by a cannonball. Hooker survived it to screw Chancellorsville completely up when the incompetent Lee handed the Army of North Virginia split three ways to Sunday to him on a silver platter. If only Hooker had just tried a little harder or just simply sat in place: the Confederates would have slaughtered themselves in front of his guns. But Hooker retreated and we had two more years of war and a half million more dead. Expletive delete Hooker. He should have turned the army over to "the snapping Turtle". Meade would have stood his ground.
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Post by American hist on Jun 27, 2023 20:50:12 GMT
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miletus12
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Post by miletus12 on Jun 29, 2023 3:58:13 GMT
One word; Incompetence. If you want elaboration; it comes down to bias and bigotry which blinkered Davis and his fellow slavocrats. When you cannot be objective, then you cannot make correct estimates of a situation.
It demonstrates itself. You do not commit treason without a reasonable chance of success. We just had a lesson about this in Russia.
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Post by American hist on Jul 7, 2023 18:29:35 GMT
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Post by American hist on Oct 7, 2023 5:24:42 GMT
One word; Incompetence. If you want elaboration; it comes down to bias and bigotry which blinkered Davis and his fellow slavocrats. When you cannot be objective, then you cannot make correct estimates of a situation.
It demonstrates itself. You do not commit treason without a reasonable chance of success. We just had a lesson about this in Russia. I don’t understand how this directly links to Sherman or the rest of the people of the south. It’s fine to pull some of his words and use him however it becomes monopoly tonget a source from 1 individual. Davis understood he didn’t want to fire the first shots be he ultimately decided to attack. Back to Davis he displayed Great personal Courage during the Confederate Bread riot, and his service in the Mexican war. Davis was pigheaded no doubt but he didn’t lack courage and as a slave owner he was more humane. Davis rode his horse gracefully unlike Abraham Lincoln
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 7, 2023 6:17:38 GMT
I don’t understand how this directly links to Sherman or the rest of the people of the south. It’s fine to pull some of his words and use him however it becomes monopoly tonget a source from 1 individual. Davis understood he didn’t want to fire the first shots be he ultimately decided to attack. Back to Davis he displayed Great personal Courage during the Confederate Bread riot, and his service in the Mexican war. Davis was pigheaded no doubt but he didn’t lack courage and as a slave owner he was more humane. Davis rode his horse gracefully unlike Abraham Lincoln We are not going this route, Davis was a slave owner, even if you say he was more humane than other slave owner, in the end he owned human beings which is not okay in my eyes.
Until i have decided whit fully what i do whit you, i going to give you a 7 day time off to think about why we do not defend slave owners.
Thread locked.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 8, 2023 5:32:33 GMT
I don’t understand how this directly links to Sherman or the rest of the people of the south. It’s fine to pull some of his words and use him however it becomes monopoly tonget a source from 1 individual. Davis understood he didn’t want to fire the first shots be he ultimately decided to attack. Back to Davis he displayed Great personal Courage during the Confederate Bread riot, and his service in the Mexican war. Davis was pigheaded no doubt but he didn’t lack courage and as a slave owner he was more humane. Davis rode his horse gracefully unlike Abraham Lincoln We are not going this route, Davis was a slave owner, even if you say he was more humane than other slave owner, in the end he owned human beings which is not okay in my eyes.
Until i have decided whit fully what i do whit you, i going to give you a 7 day time off to think about why we do not defend slave owners.
Thread locked. After reading simon darkshade explanation, i am reversing the kick and re=open the thread.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 8, 2023 5:40:09 GMT
I'd simply note that quoting/replying to a departed member from 3 months ago isn't really a good thing, as they aren't going to reply. It isn't a rule or anything like that, but just a good idea; saves talking to the wind.
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Post by American hist on Nov 4, 2023 23:42:08 GMT
I'd simply note that quoting/replying to a departed member from 3 months ago isn't really a good thing, as they aren't going to reply. It isn't a rule or anything like that, but just a good idea; saves talking to the wind. Agreed I did not know she was inactive for so long. As for the South's chances of success, historians have concluded several times that independence was nearly a reality for the South. While it is true that the North’s advantages were seemingly overwhelming, the South did indeed have advantages which sometimes bad generals do not take full advantage of those advantages. This is somewhat of a red hearing because it does not mean someone is incompetent if they decide to take charge of a sinking ship, But then again, that gives support to some of the Lost cause mythology where the Confederates were doomed from the start and knew it at the time. Well Gone with the wind is a historical romantic fiction novel there would have been rational Southerners who felt their chances of victory may be slim. I suppose that’s also what some American continental soldiers fought during the revolution especially Minutemen during 1775. But there have been many cases where the underdog became victorious . Jefferson Davis correctly knew that that was a confederacy that could win just without losing unfortunately on the csa perspective that was poorly executed under his anaialtion plan. However, McPherson points out that politicians and many other political entities displayed the difficulties of sacrificing landmass when the people of the south want there lands defended. I think the most reasonable attack on Davis was his pick of generals, such as Brag and Polk. There were some Confederate generals who made big mistakes, such as Sydney Johnston but he later died to prove that he would’ve been competent other regards.
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