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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 20, 2022 20:46:11 GMT
What alternatives to Christianity could have been choosen by Rome and what of no one was?
Mithraism is most often cited but I personally don't like it. It is misogynistic to the point of denying women entry to the religion.
Could Buddhism have made it on time to Rome?
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 21, 2022 18:17:01 GMT
What alternatives to Christianity could have been choosen by Rome and what of no one was? Mithraism is most often cited but I personally don't like it. It is misogynistic to the point of denying women entry to the religion. Could Buddhism have made it on time to Rome?
There was worship of the Sun god Sol, although I don't know a lot about it. Also possibly, if say Saul never becomes Paul Judaism could have possibly changed enough to be more open to conversion and hence had a role. Zoroastrianism was about but as the religion of the traditional enemy its less likely to gain traction. Its possible the traditional 'pagan' religions might have been revived, perhaps even as late as Julian's time 361/363 or even with the last revolt against Theodoric in 393.
Something like Buddhism is also a possibility although having it reach the Med would possibly be a big issue. Also while there are obvious exceptions it does tend to be rather pacifistic which isn't really likely to go down that well in a Med based empire facing continued attacks.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jan 22, 2022 1:52:05 GMT
Manichaeism could also become a more prevalent thing in Europe, but since it's an offshoot of Zoroastrianism, I'm not sure how it might have worked.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 22, 2022 21:33:52 GMT
Buddhism got as far away as China by 200 AD
I see no reason why it cannot be in Rome by that time.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jan 23, 2022 2:50:58 GMT
Buddhism got as far away as China by 200 AD I see no reason why it cannot be in Rome by that time. I suspect that it would have its own unique branch of Buddhism, in addition to Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Therevada branches. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 23, 2022 12:35:25 GMT
Buddhism got as far away as China by 200 AD I see no reason why it cannot be in Rome by that time.
India and China have fairly close connections, albeit that there are some pretty large mountains in the way. The Roman empire is a lot farther away and there is a Persian state of some form which is hostile to Rome so is likely to impact on the passage of ideas. I can see some traders and possibly even monks coming by sea but Rome has so many competing religions in its eastern portions that I think any such influence would be fleeting. You would need some emperor to adopt it and even then, unlike Constantine with Christianity there's no sizeable supportive populations inside the empire itself so such an influence is unlikely to outlast him.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jan 24, 2022 13:31:23 GMT
What alternatives to Christianity could have been choosen by Rome and what of no one was? Mithraism is most often cited but I personally don't like it. It is misogynistic to the point of denying women entry to the religion. Could Buddhism have made it on time to Rome? Martin Luther, King Jr., while attending Crozer Theological Seminary, wrote a paper on Mithraism".
One section covers The influence of Mithraism on Christianity.
"When Mithraism is compared with Christianity, there are surprisingly many points of similarity. Of all the mystery cults Mithraism was the greatest competitor of Christianity. The cause for struggle between these two religions was that they had so many traditions, practices and ideas that were similar and in some cases identical.
Many of the similarities between these two religions have already been alluded to, but there are many others of greater or lesser significance. The belief in immortality, a mediator between god and man, the observance of certain sacramental rites, the rebirth of converts, and (in most cases) the support of high ethical ideas were common to Mithraism as well as to Christianity. In fact, the comparison became so evident that many believed the Christian movement itself became a mystery cult. “Jesus was the divine Lord. He too had found the road to heaven by his suffering and resurrection. He too had God for his father. He had left behind the secret whereby men could achieve the goal with him.”\[Footnote:] Enslin, op. cit., p. 190.\
There were many other points of similarity between these two groups. Let us look at a few of them: (1) Both regarded Sunday as a holy day.17 (2) December 25 came to be considered as the anniversary of the birth of Mithra and Christ also. (3) Baptism and a communion meal were important parts of the ritual of both groups. (4) The rebirth of converts was a fundamental idea in the two cults. (5) The struggle with evil and the eventual triumph of good were essential ideas in both religions. (6) In both religions only initiates who passed through certain preliminary phases of introduction were admitted to the mysteries which brought salvation to converts. There were many more similarities between Christianity and Mithraism—most of them purely superficial. These which have been mentioned are largely only surface likenesses because the reasoning behind them is quite different, but the general effect is almost startling.
The sacraments of baptism and the eucharist have been mentioned as rites which were practiced both by christians and pagans. It is improbable, however, that either of these {were} introduced into Christian practices by association with the mystery cults. The baptismal ceremony in both cases (christian and mystery) was supposed to have the effect of identifying the initiate with his saviour. But although baptism did not originate with the Christians, still it was not copied from the pagans. It seems instead to have been carried over from Jewish background and modified by the new ideas and beliefs of the Christians. The eucharist, likewise though similar in some respects to the communion meal of Mithraism, was not a rite borrowed from them. There are several explanations regarding the beginning of the observance of the Lord’s Supper. Some held that the sacrament was instituted by Jesus himself. Others saw it as an outgrowth from Jewish precedents. Still others felt that, after the death of Jesus, the disciples saw in their common meal an opportunity to hold a kind of memorial service for him.
On the whole, early Christians were not greatly concerned about the likenesses between the Mithraic cult and their own. They felt at first that these competitors were not worthy of consideration, and few references to them are found in Christian literature. When Mithraism became widespread and powerful, it attracted so much attention that certain Christian apologists felt the need to present an explanation for the similarities in their respective characteristics. The only one they could offer was quite naive, but it was in keeping with the trends of thought in that age. They maintained that it was the work of the devil who helped to confuse men by creating a pagan imitation of the true religion.18
The greatest influence of Mithraism on Christianity lies in a different direction from that of doctrine and ritual. It lies in the fact that Mithraism paved the way for the presentation of Christianity to the world of that time. It prepared the people mentally and emotionally to understand the type of religion which Christianity represented. It was itself in varying degrees, an imperfect example of the Galilean cult which was to replace it. It encouraged the movement away from the state religions and the philosophical systems and toward the desire for personal salvation and promise of immortality. Christianity was truly indebted to Mithraism for this contribution, for it had done this part of the groundwork and thus opened the way for Christian missionary work.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 25, 2022 12:19:17 GMT
What alternatives to Christianity could have been choosen by Rome and what of no one was? Mithraism is most often cited but I personally don't like it. It is misogynistic to the point of denying women entry to the religion. Could Buddhism have made it on time to Rome? Martin Luther, King Jr., while attending Crozer Theological Seminary, wrote a paper on Mithraism".
One section covers The influence of Mithraism on Christianity.
"When Mithraism is compared with Christianity, there are surprisingly many points of similarity. Of all the mystery cults Mithraism was the greatest competitor of Christianity. The cause for struggle between these two religions was that they had so many traditions, practices and ideas that were similar and in some cases identical.
Many of the similarities between these two religions have already been alluded to, but there are many others of greater or lesser significance. The belief in immortality, a mediator between god and man, the observance of certain sacramental rites, the rebirth of converts, and (in most cases) the support of high ethical ideas were common to Mithraism as well as to Christianity. In fact, the comparison became so evident that many believed the Christian movement itself became a mystery cult. “Jesus was the divine Lord. He too had found the road to heaven by his suffering and resurrection. He too had God for his father. He had left behind the secret whereby men could achieve the goal with him.”\[Footnote:] Enslin, op. cit., p. 190.\
There were many other points of similarity between these two groups. Let us look at a few of them: (1) Both regarded Sunday as a holy day.17 (2) December 25 came to be considered as the anniversary of the birth of Mithra and Christ also. (3) Baptism and a communion meal were important parts of the ritual of both groups. (4) The rebirth of converts was a fundamental idea in the two cults. (5) The struggle with evil and the eventual triumph of good were essential ideas in both religions. (6) In both religions only initiates who passed through certain preliminary phases of introduction were admitted to the mysteries which brought salvation to converts. There were many more similarities between Christianity and Mithraism—most of them purely superficial. These which have been mentioned are largely only surface likenesses because the reasoning behind them is quite different, but the general effect is almost startling.
The sacraments of baptism and the eucharist have been mentioned as rites which were practiced both by christians and pagans. It is improbable, however, that either of these {were} introduced into Christian practices by association with the mystery cults. The baptismal ceremony in both cases (christian and mystery) was supposed to have the effect of identifying the initiate with his saviour. But although baptism did not originate with the Christians, still it was not copied from the pagans. It seems instead to have been carried over from Jewish background and modified by the new ideas and beliefs of the Christians. The eucharist, likewise though similar in some respects to the communion meal of Mithraism, was not a rite borrowed from them. There are several explanations regarding the beginning of the observance of the Lord’s Supper. Some held that the sacrament was instituted by Jesus himself. Others saw it as an outgrowth from Jewish precedents. Still others felt that, after the death of Jesus, the disciples saw in their common meal an opportunity to hold a kind of memorial service for him.
On the whole, early Christians were not greatly concerned about the likenesses between the Mithraic cult and their own. They felt at first that these competitors were not worthy of consideration, and few references to them are found in Christian literature. When Mithraism became widespread and powerful, it attracted so much attention that certain Christian apologists felt the need to present an explanation for the similarities in their respective characteristics. The only one they could offer was quite naive, but it was in keeping with the trends of thought in that age. They maintained that it was the work of the devil who helped to confuse men by creating a pagan imitation of the true religion.18
The greatest influence of Mithraism on Christianity lies in a different direction from that of doctrine and ritual. It lies in the fact that Mithraism paved the way for the presentation of Christianity to the world of that time. It prepared the people mentally and emotionally to understand the type of religion which Christianity represented. It was itself in varying degrees, an imperfect example of the Galilean cult which was to replace it. It encouraged the movement away from the state religions and the philosophical systems and toward the desire for personal salvation and promise of immortality. Christianity was truly indebted to Mithraism for this contribution, for it had done this part of the groundwork and thus opened the way for Christian missionary work.
Very interesting thanks. 
I didn't realise that both religions picked the 25th December as the date of birth as their founder? Knew it happened with Christianity, although not really until it became powerful in the 4thC I thought. Presumably Mithranism pick the date for the same reason, to pick up on its importance in earlier religions because of the link with the winter solstice and related celebrations at the 'return of the sun'?
Steve
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Jan 25, 2022 14:50:51 GMT
Glad I could contribute something to the discussion.
I am well aware of the fact that I have no talent for fiction and my knowledge of general history is superficial compared to most here.
Don't let that go to your heads. 
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Post by Max Sinister on Apr 27, 2022 21:01:51 GMT
It's not very probable, but what about Islam and the various paganisms?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Apr 27, 2022 22:33:33 GMT
It's not very probable, but what about Islam and the various paganisms? We end up like the novel called The Years of Rice and Salt for those who know the book. |
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