lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 20, 2022 16:53:00 GMT
Tanks should use HE, there is no point in using APFSDS. In case of a German attack using well positioned observers and drones to guide artillery should be enough to halt every attack. Drones are another big plus for defenders in Jutland; problem is long term lack of munitions and being in a turnaround of role of Armed Forces from civil defence to fighting Russians. Also note lack of artillery tubes; there is also a lack of AA-tubes. Inventory of 2019 from old TL: Available arms and units as I've been able to dig up. Note that not all will be manned.
Danish arms inventory
100? Leopard 1A5 MBT in storage
51 Leopard 2 MBT
50 M-113 MICV 25mm in store
22 Piranha MICV
44 CV 9035
233 M-113 APC M-1 .50cal 300 in store
56 M-113 armed with TOW in store
61 Mowag Piranha IIIC APC
84 Mowag Eagle IV gunshot detection (patrol)
Artillery
12 M-109A3 SP guns 2xbty.
20 120mm Mortars 3xbty.
132 TOW units
? 155mm towed guns in storage
Personnel:
army incl. Reserves 20.000
700 Carl Gustav 84mm AT
Home Guard 16.000 active, 30.000 reserves total
Special Forces 132+
of whom a number have seen service in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Kosovo, Bosnia and other parts of the world
Organization.:
Danish Division
1. Bde – Jutland 1xarm.batt., 1xarm.inf.batt., 1xmech.batt. (1940 3xarm.batt.)
2. Bde – Sjælland 5xmech.batt. 1xGuards batt. (1940 5xhvy.mech.batt)
Art. and support units Jutland
Airforce
30 F-16
14 EH-101 helo
11 Fennec 1x7,62 helo
9 MH-60R 1x.50cal 1x7,62
8 Lynx
4 C-130J
4 CL-604
27 T-17 Supporter 2xhardpoints
Radar surveillance 24/7/365!
Home Guard: Airfield defences
Navy
3 Frigates ASW capability
3 Corvettes ASW capability(mothballed)
2 Command Ships/Frigates ASW capability
1 Flyvefisken divingship able to carry torpedoes or missiles
3 Inspectionships/Frigates ASW capability
3 Inspectionships
7 Patrolboats
2 support ships
SBS
Radar surveillance 24/7/365
Home Guard: 30 light units
HQ all services Karup,Jutland
What vechiles does the Home Guard use, it might be useful to buy some older 1939 British and French hardware for them to use. |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 20, 2022 16:58:02 GMT
In August 1939 there is some time to set up at least basic arms production
Designing basic tank rounds or howitzers should not be rocket science for a country like Denmark
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 20, 2022 17:25:07 GMT
Thing is landing on August 1 1939 Denmark isn't in a state of rallying much of anybody - initially at least.
We do have a series of WWII events as unfolding in Scandinavian countries for telly and lots of other programmes which could be converted to cinematic feature films and distributed among Nordic Brothers - Finland inclusive.
There is a host of foreign Embassies at Copenhagen which may want to contact their home nation and inform of whats happening.
The early arrival will make for warning the population of what lies ahead and secure stocks for the coming days. Small problem - the Gold reserve wasn't to be shipped off to USA untill December 1939 so is lost except what amounts to 1½ bill. US$ in the Vault at Copenhagen.
Denmark will want to make friends and have time for doing some though I don't see France and Britain taking much notice.
The first test will be 1. September 1939 when the Germans did ask Denmark to mine the straits; can't see the 2018 Government doing any so!
The first Danish ship sunk was M/S Vendia on 30. September 1939 sailing for Scotland for a load of coal. Either action will bring Denmark into the war.
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 20, 2022 17:27:15 GMT
Drones are another big plus for defenders in Jutland; problem is long term lack of munitions and being in a turnaround of role of Armed Forces from civil defence to fighting Russians. Also note lack of artillery tubes; there is also a lack of AA-tubes. Inventory of 2019 from old TL: Available arms and units as I've been able to dig up. Note that not all will be manned.
Danish arms inventory
100? Leopard 1A5 MBT in storage
51 Leopard 2 MBT
50 M-113 MICV 25mm in store
22 Piranha MICV
44 CV 9035
233 M-113 APC M-1 .50cal 300 in store
56 M-113 armed with TOW in store
61 Mowag Piranha IIIC APC
84 Mowag Eagle IV gunshot detection (patrol)
Artillery
12 M-109A3 SP guns 2xbty.
20 120mm Mortars 3xbty.
132 TOW units
? 155mm towed guns in storage
Personnel:
army incl. Reserves 20.000
700 Carl Gustav 84mm AT
Home Guard 16.000 active, 30.000 reserves total
Special Forces 132+
of whom a number have seen service in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Kosovo, Bosnia and other parts of the world
Organization.:
Danish Division
1. Bde – Jutland 1xarm.batt., 1xarm.inf.batt., 1xmech.batt. (1940 3xarm.batt.)
2. Bde – Sjælland 5xmech.batt. 1xGuards batt. (1940 5xhvy.mech.batt)
Art. and support units Jutland
Airforce
30 F-16
14 EH-101 helo
11 Fennec 1x7,62 helo
9 MH-60R 1x.50cal 1x7,62
8 Lynx
4 C-130J
4 CL-604
27 T-17 Supporter 2xhardpoints
Radar surveillance 24/7/365!
Home Guard: Airfield defences
Navy
3 Frigates ASW capability
3 Corvettes ASW capability(mothballed)
2 Command Ships/Frigates ASW capability
1 Flyvefisken divingship able to carry torpedoes or missiles
3 Inspectionships/Frigates ASW capability
3 Inspectionships
7 Patrolboats
2 support ships
SBS
Radar surveillance 24/7/365
Home Guard: 30 light units
HQ all services Karup,Jutland
What vechiles does the Home Guard use, it might be useful to buy some older 1939 British and French hardware for them to use. Used to be whatever on hand but that may well have changed - I really don't know at the moment but possibly any 4x4 will be available for mobilization! |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 20, 2022 17:31:08 GMT
In August 1939 there is some time to set up at least basic arms production Designing basic tank rounds or howitzers should not be rocket science for a country like Denmark Arms production will be set up at the former Ammunitions Arsenalet which had been sold off 2008 and had since worked in destruction of ammunition and making small calibre ammunition. It was closed down March 2020 but here will be renewed.
Reloading ammunition was a major part of production probably including all sorts of ammuntion used by Danish Forces so rest assured it will soon be up and running.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 21, 2022 18:34:25 GMT
Thing is landing on August 1 1939 Denmark isn't in a state of rallying much of anybody - initially at least. We do have a series of WWII events as unfolding in Scandinavian countries for telly and lots of other programmes which could be converted to cinematic feature films and distributed among Nordic Brothers - Finland inclusive. There is a host of foreign Embassies at Copenhagen which may want to contact their home nation and inform of whats happening. The early arrival will make for warning the population of what lies ahead and secure stocks for the coming days. Small problem - the Gold reserve wasn't to be shipped off to USA untill December 1939 so is lost except what amounts to 1½ bill. US$ in the Vault at Copenhagen. Denmark will want to make friends and have time for doing some though I don't see France and Britain taking much notice. The first test will be 1. September 1939 when the Germans did ask Denmark to mine the straits; can't see the 2018 Government doing any so! The first Danish ship sunk was M/S Vendia on 30. September 1939 sailing for Scotland for a load of coal. Either action will bring Denmark into the war.
How reliant would Denmark be on imports? Both for basic things like food, oil and other raw materials or more sophisticated electronic stuff. Also could their ships and down-time ones use others facilities that well? This is a traditional issue in temporal ISOTs with the development of containerization since WWII.
I'm not so sure that the western powers would ignore news coming out of Denmark, especially given their up time diplomats desperately screaming at them to listen and also some of the technology that they can display. Plus if they pass on information that would be national secrets in Britain and France at this time, such as some diplomatic agreements, work on radar etc that could make a few people listen. Of course Germany is nearer and as you say there's likely to be some neo-Nazi nutters seeking to aid it so how big a panic or not would this generate and what might be the reaction there.
Damn I thought I had posted this earlier.
Steve
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 21, 2022 19:00:48 GMT
Thing is landing on August 1 1939 Denmark isn't in a state of rallying much of anybody - initially at least. We do have a series of WWII events as unfolding in Scandinavian countries for telly and lots of other programmes which could be converted to cinematic feature films and distributed among Nordic Brothers - Finland inclusive. There is a host of foreign Embassies at Copenhagen which may want to contact their home nation and inform of whats happening. The early arrival will make for warning the population of what lies ahead and secure stocks for the coming days. Small problem - the Gold reserve wasn't to be shipped off to USA untill December 1939 so is lost except what amounts to 1½ bill. US$ in the Vault at Copenhagen. Denmark will want to make friends and have time for doing some though I don't see France and Britain taking much notice. The first test will be 1. September 1939 when the Germans did ask Denmark to mine the straits; can't see the 2018 Government doing any so! The first Danish ship sunk was M/S Vendia on 30. September 1939 sailing for Scotland for a load of coal. Either action will bring Denmark into the war.
How reliant would Denmark be on imports? Both for basic things like food, oil and other raw materials or more sophisticated electronic stuff. Also could their ships and down-time ones use others facilities that well? This is a traditional issue in temporal ISOTs with the development of containerization since WWII.
I'm not so sure that the western powers would ignore news coming out of Denmark, especially given their up time diplomats desperately screaming at them to listen and also some of the technology that they can display. Plus if they pass on information that would be national secrets in Britain and France at this time, such as some diplomatic agreements, work on radar etc that could make a few people listen. Of course Germany is nearer and as you say there's likely to be some neo-Nazi nutters seeking to aid it so how big a panic or not would this generate and what might be the reaction there.
Damn I thought I had posted this earlier.
Steve
Someone should check datw for agricultural production. A single acre of farmland planted with potatoes is enough to feed a family of 4 for several years. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 22, 2022 9:55:49 GMT
Thing is landing on August 1 1939 Denmark isn't in a state of rallying much of anybody - initially at least. We do have a series of WWII events as unfolding in Scandinavian countries for telly and lots of other programmes which could be converted to cinematic feature films and distributed among Nordic Brothers - Finland inclusive. There is a host of foreign Embassies at Copenhagen which may want to contact their home nation and inform of whats happening. The early arrival will make for warning the population of what lies ahead and secure stocks for the coming days. Small problem - the Gold reserve wasn't to be shipped off to USA untill December 1939 so is lost except what amounts to 1½ bill. US$ in the Vault at Copenhagen. Denmark will want to make friends and have time for doing some though I don't see France and Britain taking much notice. The first test will be 1. September 1939 when the Germans did ask Denmark to mine the straits; can't see the 2018 Government doing any so! The first Danish ship sunk was M/S Vendia on 30. September 1939 sailing for Scotland for a load of coal. Either action will bring Denmark into the war.
How reliant would Denmark be on imports? Both for basic things like food, oil and other raw materials or more sophisticated electronic stuff. Also could their ships and down-time ones use others facilities that well? This is a traditional issue in temporal ISOTs with the development of containerization since WWII.
I'm not so sure that the western powers would ignore news coming out of Denmark, especially given their up time diplomats desperately screaming at them to listen and also some of the technology that they can display. Plus if they pass on information that would be national secrets in Britain and France at this time, such as some diplomatic agreements, work on radar etc that could make a few people listen. Of course Germany is nearer and as you say there's likely to be some neo-Nazi nutters seeking to aid it so how big a panic or not would this generate and what might be the reaction there.
Damn I thought I had posted this earlier.
Steve
stevep; Jan Karol Chodkiewicz; I had gotten 2018 into my head though things had changed a little by 2019 and my numbers from the 2018 TL is still valid. Agricultural produce and other foodstuffs will be no problem except for the more exotic stuffs we've become accostumed to since 1939.. as already mentioned we do have the necessary oil and natural gas in the North Sea and still tapping into it during 2019 but had gone from net export of oil to import by 2018. Rationing will be an issue. Major problem will be import of metals and computerchips; the huge Maersk containerships will probably not be able to dock anywhere else than in Denmark but more importantly the infrastructure will not be available - ports not dredged deeply enough and no cranes or trucks available in size. Problem - getting stuff in right amounts loaded abroad on modern ships.. oh yes and pay for it! Short term there would be little problems except the usual annoyances encountered in any ISOT that 2019 modern man and woman just won't be able to cope with because everybody gets frustrated and overwhelmed and frightened when their smartphone is out of operation for some minutes.. One problem I did address in the 2018 TL was the smartphone/computer clock and I expect it to be doable by 2019. Another problem will be positioning without GPS - Armed Forces will have re-learn a lot of old trades of map and compass and fast.
The Brits and French may need some first hand experience of a pair of F-16s penetrating the radar/fighter defences in the case of Britain and some live firing in the case of the French or probably both. I don't expect the Brits and French to initially be the recipients of art.5 of the NATO charter as their 1939 mentality isn't suited for it - harsh words but do think about it it would be a total Danish sell out! Unless their 2019 Embassies to Copenhagen would be able to convince them of it.. no I don't expect to, at least not in time - sorry Stevep.  Poland might be another case but the outlook is so different of 2019 to 1939 states and their political systems. The primary objectives of Denmarks should be to rally the other Nordic countries into a kind of defensive league - well Stauning had tried during the early 1930's and didn't succeed but perhaps if presented with a possible nasty what-if.. The Swedes would be difficult to convince remember their strategic outlook would be to the East not South by 1939 and the German-Soviet Pact dividing the spoils in the east e.g. Finland and Baltic states is still a couple of months in the future. The Poles and Baltics would to 2019 man and woman look like reactionary fascists of the worst kind - do remember the public and much more so media perception had changed so much. It would be a political uphill struggle but I expect sanity to win out and what can be spared of light AT-weapons to be handed over to the Poles if only to keep Stalin at bay if the Germans can be stalled.
Arming the downtimers will really be a thing of low tech - AT-weapons like 66mm rockets, upgraded torpedoes and as mentioned radar - though Denmark may be able to produce radars it'll have to be founded first. It will be months.
Armaments are easier there is still the know-how at the Ammunitionsarsenalet but it needs a rush; also as already pointed to an assessment of available artillery and AA-tubes need being made and troops trained to man it. Also more fun stuff like smartbombs and artillery clustermunitions which had been abolished by 2008 with will be in short supply and manufacturing initiated. The modern Danish ASW-ships may be of some interest to the RN at least the few German U-boote at outbreak of war should be a lessened thread once they start leaving port a cruise up the North Sea past Danish oil and gas rigs.. I expect the Navy to be quite aware of this and it may constitute an act of war as it did during WWI!
So - getting Denmark into the war against Germany is not a problem timing is.
I do expect my country to hold its own against Nazi-Germany the annoyance will be small raids of Luftwaffe as we lack numbers of combat A/C though something in the civvie inventory may boost that by a Squadron or two. And AA-guns. U-boots hunted down. Surface units sunk. Taking out Hitler et al.? Gadhaffi and Saddam Hussein getting rid off may have changed the political outlook on such actions - perhaps.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 22, 2022 11:29:09 GMT
The Royal Danish Navy in 2019.  |
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 22, 2022 11:38:54 GMT
575What ELINT/SIGINT assets does Denmark have? In case of war, destroying German HQs is going to be a major thing. I do not think it will take more than 48h for a modern signal intelligence unit to locate all German HQs down to regimental level with a few m accuracy
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 22, 2022 13:40:11 GMT
575 What ELINT/SIGINT assets does Denmark have? In case of war, destroying German HQs is going to be a major thing. I do not think it will take more than 48h for a modern signal intelligence unit to locate all German HQs down to regimental level with a few m accuracy Jan Karol Chodkiewicz;
I know that both area commands East and West - essentially Corps Commands - have a Signals Battalion which is capable of ELINT/SIGINT operation. Don't know if this i enough but it should suffice to map the Northern Germany HQs I guess.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 22, 2022 13:42:41 GMT
575 What ELINT/SIGINT assets does Denmark have? In case of war, destroying German HQs is going to be a major thing. I do not think it will take more than 48h for a modern signal intelligence unit to locate all German HQs down to regimental level with a few m accuracy Jan Karol Chodkiewicz;
I know that both area commands East and West - essentially Corps Commands - have a Signals Battalion which is capable of ELINT/SIGINT operation. Don't know if this i enough but it should suffice to map the Northern Germany HQs I guess.
They also know that HQ of the whole German army is in Zossen |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 22, 2022 13:45:31 GMT
The Royal Danish Navy in 2019. You have to add the three Corvettes Niels Juel, Olfert Fischer and Peter Tordenskjold which were still mothballed at the time.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 22, 2022 14:58:31 GMT
The Royal Danish Navy in 2019. You have to add the three Corvettes Niels Juel, Olfert Fischer and Peter Tordenskjold which were still mothballed at the time. Where the 3 Niels Juel-class corvettes not scrapped in 2013. Can the MHV800 class patrol boats and MHV900 class patrol boats be armed with something more than their standard 2x MG 3s.  |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jan 22, 2022 16:26:23 GMT
I have for some time assumed that the three corvettes was mothballed past 2009 but seems they were indeed scrapped by 2013 - not many mentioning such.
About the patrol boats armaments - have to have a look at it.
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