oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 1, 2022 16:07:47 GMT
I'm a sailor but I must admit I have attended a very interesting 'Tank" collection, not far from my home. It is part of the "American Heritage Museum" a military history museum located on the grounds of the Collings Foundation in the town of Stow, Massachusetts, 21 miles west of Boston.
My No.1 daughter is a real "motor head". The Collings Foundation has an absolutely magnificent classic car collection along with a few magnificently restored aircraft. We would attend the open houses about twice a year for the car collection.
You have to see these magnificent automtive pieces of art to appreciate them.
www.collingsfoundation.org/automobiles/
At the American Heritage Museum you explore America’s conflicts, beginning with the Revolutionary War to today. You’ll discover, and interact with, our heritage through the History, the national effort developing new technologies of warfare, and the Human Impact of America’s fight to preserve the freedom we all hold dear.
Things changed drastically when the Foundation was selected to receive the massive collection of tanks, armored vehicles and military artifacts from the family of Jacques M. Littlefield in 2013. The car collection is still outstanding but the aircraft have been incorporated into the tank collection.
"Receiving this historically important and extensive collection was a tremendous honor for the Collings Foundation. Exhibiting these artifacts in the most meaningful way possible is our goal. We designed the American Heritage Museum to fully engage people in understanding our turbulent past. In this remarkable place, American history will be explored, studied and most of all, remembered. Through educational interpretation, and a chronologically arranged series of dioramas and exhibits, the American Heritage Museum brings the history of our veterans to life.
Among the staggering variety of rare relics, the American Heritage Museum features over fifteen tanks and artifacts that are the only ones on public display in North America. These include: M1A1 Abrams Tank, T-34 Tank, Kommandogerrat 38 German Rangefinder, Leichter Panzerspähwagen SdKfz 222 Armored Vehicle, Matilda MK.II Tank, Jumbo Sherman Tank, IS-2 Tank, Panzer 1 Tank, SCUD Missile and Launcher, Ho-Ro Tank and many more."
I brought my 8 year old Grandson "Cowboy" Tim to see the tank collection on one of our weekly "Tim and Papa days". He was floored by the German motor cycle half tracked Sd.Kfz.2 and just had to jump on it. The museum staff was pretty accommodating until he asked if his Papa (who used to ride a motor cycle) could take him for a ride, just around the farm? The answer was no.
When I apologized for Tim jumping onto the exhibits one of the staffers said. "It's not a problem. What damage could he do? After all their tanks."
I told him he really doesn't know Tim.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 1, 2022 16:09:07 GMT
I'm a sailor but I must admit I have attended a very interesting 'Tank" collection, not far from my home. It is part of the "American Heritage Museum" a military history museum located on the grounds of the Collings Foundation in the town of Stow, Massachusetts, 21 miles west of Boston.
My No.1 daughter is a real "motor head". The Collings Foundation has an absolutely magnificent classic car collection along with a few magnificently restored aircraft. We would attend the open houses about twice a year for the car collection.
You have to see these magnificent automtive pieces of art to appreciate them.
www.collingsfoundation.org/automobiles/
At the American Heritage Museum you explore America’s conflicts, beginning with the Revolutionary War to today. You’ll discover, and interact with, our heritage through the History, the national effort developing new technologies of warfare, and the Human Impact of America’s fight to preserve the freedom we all hold dear.
Things changed drastically when the Foundation was selected to receive the massive collection of tanks, armored vehicles and military artifacts from the family of Jacques M. Littlefield in 2013. The car collection is still outstanding but the aircraft have been incorporated into the tank collection.
"Receiving this historically important and extensive collection was a tremendous honor for the Collings Foundation. Exhibiting these artifacts in the most meaningful way possible is our goal. We designed the American Heritage Museum to fully engage people in understanding our turbulent past. In this remarkable place, American history will be explored, studied and most of all, remembered. Through educational interpretation, and a chronologically arranged series of dioramas and exhibits, the American Heritage Museum brings the history of our veterans to life.
Among the staggering variety of rare relics, the American Heritage Museum features over fifteen tanks and artifacts that are the only ones on public display in North America. These include: M1A1 Abrams Tank, T-34 Tank, Kommandogerrat 38 German Rangefinder, Leichter Panzerspähwagen SdKfz 222 Armored Vehicle, Matilda MK.II Tank, Jumbo Sherman Tank, IS-2 Tank, Panzer 1 Tank, SCUD Missile and Launcher, Ho-Ro Tank and many more."
I brought my 8 year old Grandson "Cowboy" Tim to see the tank collection on one of our weekly "Tim and Papa days". He was floored by the German motor cycle half tracked Sd.Kfz.2 and just had to jump on it. The museum staff was pretty accommodating until he asked if his Papa (who used to ride a motor cycle) could take him for a ride, just around the farm? The answer was no.
When I apologized for Tim jumping onto the exhibits one of the staffers said. "It's not a problem. What damage could he do? After all their tanks."
I told him he really doesn't know Tim. Would love to go there Senior Chief, but have to do with Sofilein instead.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 1, 2022 18:05:01 GMT
The tanks are OK but the classic car collection is absolutely world class. Too bad it is only on display about twice a year. You can see the tanks almost every day.
Lordroel, you ever get to this neck of the woods, it would be my pleasure to show you around. We also have some fairly acceptable eating and drinking establishments locally.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 1, 2022 18:09:38 GMT
The tanks are OK but the classic car collection is absolutely world class. Too bad it is only on display about twice a year. You can see the tanks almost every day.
Lordroel, you ever get to this neck of the woods, it would be my pleasure to show you around. We also have some fairly acceptable eating and drinking establishments locally. I will hold you to that Senior Chief, but i more a boat person, have checked everything except a battleship, i did drive by the USS Alabama some years ago, but as i was on a time schedule i could not stop to visit it.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 1, 2022 18:28:01 GMT
The tanks are OK but the classic car collection is absolutely world class. Too bad it is only on display about twice a year. You can see the tanks almost every day.
Lordroel, you ever get to this neck of the woods, it would be my pleasure to show you around. We also have some fairly acceptable eating and drinking establishments locally. I will hold you to that Senior Chief, but i more a boat person, have checked everything except a battleship, i did drive by the USS Alabama some years ago, but as i was on a time schedule i could not stop to visit it.
Well we have the "Big Mamie" at Battleship Cove down in Fall River. Not more than an hour and a half from my place. You might be interested in the fact our own dear Stu (God bless him) had something to do with the Hiddensee:Tarantul I class missile corvette.
If I remember correctly, Stu had a piece of the extensive testing at the Navy's Solomons, Maryland, facility in the Patuxent River.
If it happens, how about a good cigar and a toast of some of my very best to Stu on the quarter deck? When I visit I usually find some quiet time to have a cigar on the flight deck of the Joe Kennedy.
She is a sister ship of one of my old cans. Lots of great memories.
Enough, I am getting a bit too sentimental. God knows I miss that man.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 1, 2022 18:33:20 GMT
I will hold you to that Senior Chief, but i more a boat person, have checked everything except a battleship, i did drive by the USS Alabama some years ago, but as i was on a time schedule i could not stop to visit it.
Well we have the "Big Mamie" at Battleship Cove down in Fall River. Not more than an hour and a half from my place. You might be interested in the fact our own dear Stu (God bless him) had something to do with the Hiddensee:Tarantul I class missile corvette.
If I remember correctly, Stu had a piece of the extensive testing at the Navy's Solomons, Maryland, facility in the Patuxent River.
If it happens, how about a good cigar and a toast of some of my very best to Stu on the quarter deck? When I visit I usually find some quiet time to have a cigar on the flight deck of the Joe Kennedy.
She is a sister ship of one of my old cans. Lots of great memories.
Enough, I am getting a bit too sentimental. God knows I miss that man.
oscssw, so do i miss him and his stories every day, if i ever go to where you are i will take the offer to toast, but you will have to carry me of deck as i am the only person in my family who cannot handle anything strong despite me being a collector of johnny walkers and Absolut Vodka
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Feb 2, 2022 15:13:45 GMT
US Army politics... Major General Hehr should have been shot for incompetence.
The American army was overrun with "the horsey set". Meanwhile, the most motorized society on Earth had the second largest horsey force on Earth.
General Gerow pops up. Heinze Guderian and US army officers visit each other. The Kriegsakademie (German war academy) teaches a flock of American army officers, Deutscher Manöverkrieg or schnelle Manöverkriegsführung (German maneuver warfare.) and it looks like Adna Chaffee may hang on just long enough and fight off his cancer to start the Americans on the proper "universal tank" path, except that Gerow, Hehr, and later McNair screw up all his good work.
In the meantime, the horse still remains a fixture for the American cavalry and the US infantry is still stuck in the American civil war as to "tactical" acumen.
Someone should do something about those army branch chiefs...
Enter George Marshall.
Meanwhile Voorhees and Chaffee get into their famous budget battle over mechanization. (Horses versus scout cars; this issue is not settled until the scout car set run rings around the horsey set in the pre-war army maneuvers.).
Chaffee replaces Voorhees as commander of 7th US cavalry. Are things looking up? Not yet. There are a lot of politics right through WWII, but note that the Americans had to create an armor branch and consolidate everybody into army ground forces to solve the political crisis and get rid of the horsey crew. Mind you, Patton was part of the horsey crew...
And then came McNair... who is Army Ground Forces. Yetch.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 2, 2022 15:16:50 GMT
US Army politics... Major General Hehr should have been shot for incompetence. The American army was overrun with "the horsey set". Meanwhile, the most motorized society on Earth had the second largest horsey force on Earth. General Gerow pops up. Heinze Guderian and US army officers visit each other. The Kriegsakademie (German war academy) teaches a flock of American army officers, Deutscher Manöverkrieg or schnelle Manöverkriegsführung (German maneuver warfare.) and it looks like Adna Chaffee may hang on just long enough and fight off his cancer to start the Americans on the proper "universal tank" path, except that Gerow, Hehr, and later McNair screw up all his good work. In the meantime, the horse still remains a fixture for the American cavalry and the US infantry is still stuck in the American civil war as to "tactical" acumen. Someone should do something about those army branch chiefs... Enter George Marshall. Meanwhile Voorhees and Chaffee get into their famous budget battle over mechanization. (Horses versus scout cars; this issue is not settled until the scout car set run rings around the horsey set in the pre-war army maneuvers.). Chaffee replaces Voorhees as commander of 7th US cavalry. Are things looking up? Not yet. There are a lot of politics right through WWII, but note that the Americans had to create an armor branch and consolidate everybody into army ground forces to solve the political crisis and get rid of the horsey crew. Mind you, Patton was part of the horsey crew... And then came McNair... who is Army Ground Forces. Yetch. Watching the two episodes i feel the US Army was forced into using tanks and first did not know where they should belong to ore how to use it, but i could be wrong.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Feb 2, 2022 20:19:19 GMT
Watching the two episodes i feel the US Army was forced into using tanks and first did not know where they should belong to ore how to use it, but i could be wrong. The problem with understanding these two chapters; the Chieftain, Nick Moran, covers; is that there seems to be a misconception that the American military was apolitical both as a professional service officer corps and as military services. As from the very beginning, "politics" has played a part in how the American army has been organized and has fought. If nothing else, the problems George Washington had with traitors (Benedict Arnold), buffoons (Horatio Gates), incompetents, (The two Lees; Charles (Who was also a traitor.) and Light Horse Harry, who was a drunk, womanizer, a coward, a wife beater and a deserter.) The very structure of the Continental Army was a political football, until Washington put in his own team of Steuben, Lafayette and Greene and built up the Continental Line. And the politics was not done. During the Jefferson Administration, there was the traitor, James Wilkinson, who tried to restructure the professional army into a Praetorian guard a la Roman Empire to aid Aaron Burr's conspiracy to break the United States into four "kingdoms". This continued into the Mexican American War where the American army was in a quandary as to how to reach Mexico City from Texas. Zachary Taylor's faction used militia and tried to field American cavalry as Uhlans. Winfield Scott, who was a much better general, took the professionals who were line infantry, and trained them like Marines and went the Vera Cruz to Mexico City route. His approach, to use his cavalry as dragoons and to rely heavily on engineers (pioneers he called them), to storm the assorted Mexican prepared defenses worked, but it was Zachary Taylor who won the presidency. The politics during the American Civil War, start with mass desertions by about half of the "apolitical" US officer corps who were mostly engineer trained (army and navy) to the Confederacy. Those who were left were either ordnance, quartermaster, or a good % line infantry. Hence, the Confederate army raised up a sizable and formidable cavalry corps who operated as cuirassiers early from 1861 to 1863. The one saving grace for the regular US army was that old hard bitten Indian fighters and veterans of the Mormon War and a few southerners stayed loyal, so that the Union cavalry could learn how to fight as dragoons. DRAGOONS. That is important, because unlike European horse after 1865, the Americans fought almost exclusively as a type of mounted infantry. This was a result of service politics, especially after the plains wars against the First Nations. Anyway, next time the service politics comes up is in the Spanish American War. 250,000 militia were raised, but the main fighting was carried out almost exclusively by the Regular Army, because the few times the militia was tried, the Spaniards and the Filipinos whipped them soundly. There was a concerted effort to sideline democrat generals like Nelson Miles, and to keep republican generals like William Shafter and Wesley Merritt away from the US to keep them out of politics. And speaking of incompetent commanders and political generals, the situation was so bad in the American army, that an old unreconstructed Confederate general, Joe Wheeler, was put in charge of US cavalry units like the 9th and 10th US cavalry and was expected to storm Kettle and San Juan hills. What makes that service politics hilarious, was that the infantry was militia and had been routed (Black Jack Pershing's boys), but the "federals" who dug the Tercios out of their trenches, were mostly African American soldiers. Might point out that another cavalry outfit, the First American Volunteer Cavalry was technically "militia", but they had been trained to professional standards by Theodore Roosevelt and an army doctor, Leonard Wood. WWI was an American disgrace with the ever-incompetent Woodrow Wilson choosing the imbecilic "Blackjack Pershing", fresh from his failed Mexican Punitive Expedition to command the AEF. Pershing fought with Tasker Bliss over how the US Army was to be organized and sent to Europe. Pershing won that one with Wilson backing him for political reasons over Bliss, and what landed in France was an untrained mob of "infantry militia" who took a year for the French to train into some semblance of an army. 1918 was the bloodbath year which would influence veteran mid-grade American army officers that they would not repeat Pershing's mistakes in sending raw troops into machine gun fire to be slaughtered. Google Dwight Eisenhower, George Marshall, Walter Krueger, Adna Chaffee and Jacob Devers for the people who absorbed the gospel of professionalism according to generals Fox Conner and Hunter Liggett. Notably two buffoons, Lloyd Fredendall and Omar Bradley did not absorb the lessons. Douglas MacArthur? Jury is out on him. He screws up so often, and yet pulls an ace out of his sleeve just as often, that one cannot be sure. Anyway, the interwar army politics comes down to two major blunders; The National Defense Act of 1920 which fails to create or define an air service for the Americans, and the Branch or Service Bureaus as the core administrative framework for the army and the navy. With the paucity of money being parceled out, each branch or bureau chief had a direct beeline to congress to plead his bureau's budget, bypassing the service secretary involved. So the politics intensified. The National Defense Act of 1920 also gave tanks to the infantry. But: it was recognized for Mexico, that the CAVALRY would need tanks, so they got "combat cars" and the tank money was split two ways twice in two separate lines of development *(The cavalry wanted Christie tanks) and was doubly squandered. Nobody, aside from Chaffee or Mitchell (That would be Billy Mitchell) was going to go against the Bureau chiefs or horse bozos like Hehr to argue for the combined arms regiments like the Russians and the British were trying to stand up. Even reformers like Secretaries of War Newton Baker and Patrick Hurley, who desperately wanted such motorized combined arms regiments, could not buck the bureaus. That is a summary of the politicized American army and why George Marshall, to crush the bureau system and solve the "tank" problem, created Army Ground Forces, Army Air Forces and Army Service Forces. He solved Hehr's hash by getting him fired, and then turned the Horsey Crowd into the "reconnaissance element" for the infantry divisions. The "dragoons" officially became the "Armored", and the antitank problem became the "Tank Destroyers". It was a POLITICAL solution that could have been unnecessary if Tasker Bliss had won his case and the combined arms regiments had been stood up in 1917 (as was done defacto in late 1918.) and kept in the 1920 National Defense Act.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,365
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 2, 2022 20:28:37 GMT
Watching the two episodes i feel the US Army was forced into using tanks and first did not know where they should belong to ore how to use it, but i could be wrong. The problem with understanding these two chapters; the Chieftain, Nick Moran, covers; is that there seems to be a misconception that the American military was apolitical both as a professional service officer corps and as military services. As from the very beginning, "politics" has played a part in how the American army has been organized and has fought. If nothing else, the problems George Washington had with traitors (Benedict Arnold), buffoons (Horatio Gates), incompetents, (The two Lees; Charles (Who was also a traitor.) and Light Horse Harry, who was a drunk, womanizer, a coward, a wife beater and a deserter.) The very structure of the Continental Army was a political football, until Washington put in his own team of Steuben, Lafayette and Greene and built up the Continental Line. And the politics was not done. During the Jefferson Administration, there was the traitor, James Wilkinson, who tried to restructure the professional army into a Praetorian guard a la Roman Empire to aid Aaron Burr's conspiracy to break the United States into four "kingdoms". This continued into the Mexican American War where the Amer4ican army was in a quandary as to how to reach Mexico City from Texas. Zachary Taylor's faction used militia and tried to field American cavalry as Uhlans. Winfield Scott, who was a much better general, took the professionals who were line infantry, and trained them like Marines and went the Vera Cruz to Mexico City route. His approach, to use his cavalry as dragoons and to rely heavily on engineers (pioneers he called them) to storm the assorted Mexican prepared defenses worked, but it was Zachary Taylor who won the presidency. The politics during the American Civil War, start with mass desertions by about half of the "apolitical" US officer corpss who were mostly engineer trained (army and navy) to the Confederacy. Those who were left were either ordnance, quartermaster, or a good % line infantr. HENCE, the Confederate army raised up a sizable and formidable cavalry corps who operated as cuirassiers early from 1861 to 1863. The one saving grace for the Regular US army was that old hard bitten Indian fighters and veterans of the Mormon War and a few southerners stayed loyal, so that the Union cavalry could learn how to fight as dragoons. DRAGOONS. That is important, because unlike European horse after 1865, the Americans fought almost exclusively as a type of mounted infantry. This was a result of service politics, especially after the plains wars against the First Nations. Anyway, next time the service politics comes up is in the Spanish American War. 250,000 militia were raised, but the main fighting was carried out almost exclusively by the Regular Army, because the few times the militia was tried, the Spaniards and the Filipinos whipped them soundly. There was a concerted effort to sideline democrat generals like Nelson Miles, and to keep republican generals like William Shafter and Wesley Merritt away from the US to keep them out of politics. And speaking of incompetent commanders and political generals, the situation was so bad in the American army, that an old unreconstructed Confederate general, Joe Wheeler, was put in charge of US cavalry units like the 9th and 10th US cavalry and was expected to storm Kettle and San Juan hills. What makes that service politics hilarious, was that the infantry was militia and had been routed (Black Jack Pershing), but the "federals" who dug the Tercios out of their trenches, were mostly African American soldiers. Might point out that another cavalry outfit, the First American Volunteer Cavalry was technically "militia", but they had been trained to professional standards by Theodore Roosevelt and an army doctor, Leonard Wood. WWI was an American disgrace with the ever-incompetent Woodrow Wilson choosing the imbecilic "Blackjack Pershing", fresh from his failed Mexican Punitive Expedition to command the AEF. Pershing fought with Tasker Bliss over how the US Army was to be organized and sent to Europe. Pershing won that one with Wilson backing him for political reasons over Bliss, and what landed in France was an untrained mob of "infantry militia" who took a year for the French to train into some semblance of an army. 1918 was the bloodbath year which would influence veteran mid-grade American army officers that they would not repeat Pershing's mistakes in sending raw troops into machine gun fire to be slaughtered. Google Dwight Eisenhower, George Marshall, Walter Krueger, Adna Chaffee and Jacob Devers for the people who absorbed the gospel of professionalism according to generals Fox Conner and Hunter Liggett. Notably two buffoons, Lloyd Fredendall and Omar Bradley did not absorb the lessons. Douglas MacArthur? Jury is out on him. He screws up so often, and yet pulls an ace out of his sleeve just as often, that one cannot be sure. Anyway, the interwar army politics comes down to two major blunders; The National Defense Act of 1920 which fails to create or define an air service for the Americans, and the Branch or Service Bureaus as the core administrative framework for the army and the navy. With the paucity of money being parceled out, each branch or bureau chief had a direct beeline to congress to plead his bureau's budget, bypassing the service secretary involved. So the politics intensified. The National Defense Act of 1920 also gave tanks to the infantry. But: it was recognized for Mexico, that the CAVALRY would need tanks, so they got "combat cars" and the tank money was split two ways twice in two separate lines of development *(The cavalry wanted Christie tanks) and was doubly squandered. Nobody, aside from Chaffee or Mitchell (That would be Billy Mitchell) was going to go against the Bureau chiefs or horse bozos like Hehr to argue for the combined arms regiments like the Russians and the British were trying to stand up. Even reformers like Secretaries of War Newton Baker and Patrick Hurley, who desperately wanted such motorized combined arms regiments, could not buck the bureaus. That is a summary of the politicized American army and why George Marshall, to crush the bureau system and solve the "tank" problem, created Army Ground Forces, Army Air Forces and Army Service Forces. He solved Hehr's hash by getting him fired, and then turned the Horsey Crowd into the "reconnaissance element" for the infantry divisions. The "dragoons" officially became the "Armored", and the antitank problem became the "Tank Destroyers". It was a POLITICAL solution that could have been unnecessary if Tasker Bliss had won his case and the combined arms regiments had been stood up in 1917 (as was done defacto in late 1918.) and kept in the 1920 National Defense Act. Thanks for your short answer to my question.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 3, 2022 15:49:43 GMT
After reading these posts, I noticed Miletus12 leaves Georgie Patton out of the interwar tank development. Given his experience actually commanding a US tank Battalion in combat during WW I I would have thought he would have been a very vocal advocate of the armored branch. I know he designed that absurd tanker uniform between the wars but I guess he was too junior to effect the political decisions in the US Army. He was also a survivor and as such knew better than mix with the elephants.
Oh, I have to disagree about the competence of Black Jack. IMO he was an above average competent commander. Given the ROE's, size and the logistical limitations of the 1916 US army, he had no real chance of getting Poncho. When hard pressed Poncho just disbursed his band and simply slipped away. Later he reconstituted his relatively small band of Mexican Patriots when the US Cav moved on. Remember, Pershing was fighting a guerrilla war, in a country with a population that supporter Poncho against the "Gringo invaders".
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Feb 4, 2022 21:21:43 GMT
After reading these posts, I noticed Miletus12 leaves Georgie Patton out of the interwar tank development. Given his experience actually commanding a US tank Battalion in combat during WW I I would have thought he would have been a very vocal advocate of the armored branch. I know he designed that absurd tanker uniform between the wars but I guess he was too junior to effect the political decisions in the US Army. He was also a survivor and as such knew better than mix with the elephants. The first mention of George Patton in the professional journals is a very curious one.Summary of the 1929 maneuvers in the article entitled is more concerned with the movement and sustainment of horse cavalry than it was with armored cars of air to ground cooperation. As another article which I quote: My comments. 1. Captain Patton should have a Chicago Manual of Style for he is illiterate. 2. Too much a reader of H. G. Wells, and not a reader of General D'Estienne or B.H. Liddell Hart, Patton story-tells not from his experiences from the great war, but from his experiences in Mexico, when he operated with the motor car machine gun detachment, as one of the madcaps who chased and failed to bring to book the Villistas. His descriptions of and suggestions for American armored cars are geared for Mexico based on his experience thereby. Bringing a dead body back for enemy unit identification as an example of a scouting mission success; it is word for word what he did during "The Punitive Expedition". He brought a dead bandito back to higher headquarters as proof of his mission report and results. He had the body tied across his motor car the way deer hunters tie dead carcasses to the hoods of their pickup trucks. That should give an idea of the mindset of Captain Patton. He was no Adna Chafee or Jacob Devers, concerned with numbers or technical details. Patton was anecdotal and something of a romantic. This may work against a Rommel, who was of similar mindset, but against a Model, Rundstedt, or Bock, who fought by the numbers, it could result in a disaster, like Metz. Oh, I have to disagree about the competence of Black Jack. IMO he was an above average competent commander. Given the ROE's, size and the logistical limitations of the 1916 US army, he had no real chance of getting Poncho. When hard pressed Poncho just disbursed his band and simply slipped away. Later he reconstituted his relatively small band of Mexican Patriots when the US Cav moved on. Remember, Pershing was fighting a guerrilla war, in a country with a population that supported Poncho against the "Gringo invaders". Granted, but I have no book for this incompetent man. He failed to carry his assault on the left at Kettle Hill and lied about it in his report. He skated on that Spanish American War perjury. Then he was sent as one of the American observers to spectate the Russo-Japanese War. He never set eyeballs on Japanese infantry being mowed down by machine gun fire, nor watched them hang up on concertina in attack after attack against the Russians. Going the other way, he never saw the Japanese do even deadlier work against Russian cavalry with their machine guns and inadequate artillery. Yet, he reported that riflemen imbued with the spirit of attack could carry a fortified position in a charge. He was an idiot to report such opinions when other American officers present uniformly reached the opposite conclusions with numerous caveats about training, artillery support and sheer weight of numbers being required. Yet what did we get from Pershing?The point, to take from the article, is that an organization's adaptability depends on its leadership. If one has liars and poltroons at the very top, who are rigid in attitude, overweeningly arrogant, and unable to change their minds based on evidence, that rigidity percolates down the chain of responsibility and hobbles the innovation and acceptance of reality by such an organization. Hence: Captain Patton's article on armored cars and cavalry which made no sense with what was known in 1924, gets published and approved in "The Cavalry Journal", and a bonehead, like General Hehr, still argues for horse cavalry in 1938, successfully, and obstructs critical needed progress until he is forcibly retired by a more flexible-minded leader and boss, such as George Marshall, who often violated Pershing's wishes in WWI, when he drew up American plans for their part of the 100 Days Offensive. As for General LeJeune's opinion at the time? He thought Pershing was a braindead idiot, and since Lejeune worked for the American NAVY, he could say that opinion aloud and get away with it. He was a marine.
|
|
oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
Posts: 967
Likes: 1,575
|
Post by oscssw on Feb 5, 2022 1:07:30 GMT
Thanks miletus12 lots of good reading. In Georgie's articles. Georgie's writing does not disappoint. What a strange mixture of romanticism and insightful analysis. The man was certainly a real innovative military professional with a 19th century flare for the dramatic. How he can authoritatively comment on the use of tanks, Machine guns, modern artillery and armored cars and still contend the saber was of any real use in 1930 boggles my mind.
I skimmed most of the articles and concentrated on his Punitive expedition and "Armored Cars" narratives.
IMO, FWIW, (being a sailor not much really) the Punitive expedition taught the US Army AND JJ Pershing a great deal about "large scale" command, control and logistics, it was seriously lacking.
IMO, that learning was of far more importance than catching old Poncho, in the long run.
So I'd say the Punitive expedition was a success.
Besides one of my very favorite songs is "Pancho & Lefty" sung be Merle Haggard & Willie Nelson and written by Townes Van Zandt
But that's just me...I'm funny that way.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Feb 6, 2022 17:56:02 GMT
Italian tanks.
The takeaway about the Italian "medium" M 14/41. It is about equivalent to an M3 Stuart in combat quality. And by 1941 standards, the M3 Stuart was still "competitive".
Italian armor was derived from volcanic iron, not meteorite iron as in German and American tanks. The Italian tank was comparable in quality to the CRUSADER as to armor. The Italian tank line was an evolved progressive design. The main problem with the tank development is that high sulfur content, poisons the elasticity of the plate, the Italian industry is too small, and the Italian populace has a very limited base of civilians who have experience with farm or car automotive tech.
British propaganda and racism colors our impressions of how the Italian soldier performed. The actual history of Italian armored forces is a quite different kettle of cooked fish. Littorio and Ariette performed quite well, at least as good as 15th or 21st Panzer.
That is the true history.
|
|
miletus12
Squadron vice admiral
To get yourself lost, just follow the signs.
Posts: 7,470
Likes: 4,295
|
Post by miletus12 on Feb 9, 2022 4:21:47 GMT
The Czech 38T becomes the basis for the "Hetzer". This vehicle is absolutely horrible as a tank destroyer.
The SPG was too cramped for the crew to fight it efficiently. The gun stuffed into it was too much gun for the chassis.
The ergonomics were horrible. This thing was as awful as the British Valiant or the Australian Sentinel.
|
|