ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
|
Post by ukron on Jan 7, 2022 1:51:12 GMT
It is a known fact and already mentioned here that the Grumman F-14 owed its existence and its career (can you imagine Top Gun without Tomcat ??) only to the Iranian contract. It is less known, however, that four other countries have taken an interest in Grumman's big cat: Saudi Arabia and Japan on the one hand and Israel and Great Britain on the other, the latter nations very seriously considering the " purchase of the variable geometry fighter (instead of the F-15). In the case of London, the decision was based on the price (increasingly high) and the development (not serene) of the Tornado (Program ADV), indeed this one seemed to cut more and more on the budget of the British defense (which have already seen it has often been very problematic). London therefore considered the F-14 as the only alternative (the F-16 being rejected because of its small size, and the F-15 did not have the electronic capabilities that the RAF wanted) while for its part Grumman tested the waters ( literally asking the British aero press for their opinion !!). But to tell the truth, London wasn't very enthusiastic and feared pressure from its American ally, so MOD was considering the purchase of second-hand copies of the USN but the English only get F-4Js to replace temporarily the Tornado which began to enter service in 1986 (due to the delay in development of the FoxHunter radar). Source and Image: https: //theaviationgeekclub.com/the-raf-f-14-tomcat-fighter-jets-that-never-were/ (copyright holder for the image).  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022 
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 26, 2022 10:29:05 GMT
It is a known fact and already mentioned here that the Grumman F-14 owed its existence and its career (can you imagine Top Gun without Tomcat ??) only to the Iranian contract. It is less known, however, that four other countries have taken an interest in Grumman's big cat: Saudi Arabia and Japan on the one hand and Israel and Great Britain on the other, the latter nations very seriously considering the " purchase of the variable geometry fighter (instead of the F-15). In the case of London, the decision was based on the price (increasingly high) and the development (not serene) of the Tornado (Program ADV), indeed this one seemed to cut more and more on the budget of the British defense (which have already seen it has often been very problematic). London therefore considered the F-14 as the only alternative (the F-16 being rejected because of its small size, and the F-15 did not have the electronic capabilities that the RAF wanted) while for its part Grumman tested the waters ( literally asking the British aero press for their opinion !!). But to tell the truth, London wasn't very enthusiastic and feared pressure from its American ally, so MOD was considering the purchase of second-hand copies of the USN but the English only get F-4Js to replace temporarily the Tornado which began to enter service in 1986 (due to the delay in development of the FoxHunter radar). Source and Image: https: //theaviationgeekclub.com/the-raf-f-14-tomcat-fighter-jets-that-never-were/ (copyright holder for the image). A RN F14 would mean a big carrier I assume to handle it. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,851
Likes: 13,234
|
Post by stevep on Jan 26, 2022 16:41:59 GMT
It is a known fact and already mentioned here that the Grumman F-14 owed its existence and its career (can you imagine Top Gun without Tomcat ??) only to the Iranian contract. It is less known, however, that four other countries have taken an interest in Grumman's big cat: Saudi Arabia and Japan on the one hand and Israel and Great Britain on the other, the latter nations very seriously considering the " purchase of the variable geometry fighter (instead of the F-15). In the case of London, the decision was based on the price (increasingly high) and the development (not serene) of the Tornado (Program ADV), indeed this one seemed to cut more and more on the budget of the British defense (which have already seen it has often been very problematic). London therefore considered the F-14 as the only alternative (the F-16 being rejected because of its small size, and the F-15 did not have the electronic capabilities that the RAF wanted) while for its part Grumman tested the waters ( literally asking the British aero press for their opinion !!). But to tell the truth, London wasn't very enthusiastic and feared pressure from its American ally, so MOD was considering the purchase of second-hand copies of the USN but the English only get F-4Js to replace temporarily the Tornado which began to enter service in 1986 (due to the delay in development of the FoxHunter radar). Source and Image: https: //theaviationgeekclub.com/the-raf-f-14-tomcat-fighter-jets-that-never-were/ (copyright holder for the image). A RN F14 would mean a big carrier I assume to handle it.
At that time I would suspect not. That would have been an huge budget item both for construction and operating costs. Suspect they would have been used more from land bases. After all Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel don't have carriers and Japan has only recently produced ships large enough to operate manned a/c - as opposed to helicopters. To get something that could really use a T-14 as a CV you would probably need something at least as big as the current Queen Elizabeth class which I can't see being politically acceptable in the 70's or 80's.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Jan 26, 2022 17:14:29 GMT
A RN F14 would mean a big carrier I assume to handle it. At that time I would suspect not. That would have been an huge budget item both for construction and operating costs. Suspect they would have been used more from land bases. After all Iran, Saudi Arabia and Israel don't have carriers and Japan has only recently produced ships large enough to operate manned a/c - as opposed to helicopters. To get something that could really use a T-14 as a CV you would probably need something at least as big as the current Queen Elizabeth class which I can't see being politically acceptable in the 70's or 80's.
To bad as far as i know, after CVA-01 in 1966 and later on HMS Eagle and HMS Ark Royal where scrapped, the Royal Navy did not look for a flatop as big as CVA-01 until the construction of the Queen Elizabeth class of present. |
|
belushitd
Warrant Officer
Posts: 205
Likes: 258
|
Post by belushitd on Feb 10, 2022 15:19:19 GMT
I have to agree that the UK would, in all likelihood, only operate the F-14 as a land based force.
I suppose that the RAF could do exchange tours with the USN, including getting carrier training, but I wouldn't think that they'd actually take their planes to the American carriers, if for no other reason than the maintenance requirements to ensure compatibility would be.... problematic, at best.
Does the Fleet Air Arm operate any land based squadrons? That might be a better way to go. They could have a pool of pilots already carrier trained, and would just have to do transition training on type.
Belushi TD
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 10, 2022 15:24:51 GMT
I have to agree that the UK would, in all likelihood, only operate the F-14 as a land based force. I suppose that the RAF could do exchange tours with the USN, including getting carrier training, but I wouldn't think that they'd actually take their planes to the American carriers, if for no other reason than the maintenance requirements to ensure compatibility would be.... problematic, at best. Does the Fleet Air Arm operate any land based squadrons? That might be a better way to go. They could have a pool of pilots already carrier trained, and would just have to do transition training on type. Belushi TD And by 2008 The RAF will have to scrap the F-14 in order to keep the spare parts from falling into the hands of Iran. |
|
belushitd
Warrant Officer
Posts: 205
Likes: 258
|
Post by belushitd on Feb 10, 2022 16:04:56 GMT
Ehhh. Maybe. Depends on what other butterflies may have come out of the purchase. I doubt the RAF/RN would take kindly to being told by the US "Scrap the F-14s.". For some reason, I strongly suspect they'd object vociferously, unless they were looking for reasons to divest themselves of a serious maintenance hog.
I mean, really, how hard would it actually have been to do something unpleasant to the entire fleet during the 80's while they were at war with Iraq, or during either of the Persian Gulf wars?
Belushi TD
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 10, 2022 16:09:33 GMT
Ehhh. Maybe. Depends on what other butterflies may have come out of the purchase. I doubt the RAF/RN would take kindly to being told by the US "Scrap the F-14s.". For some reason, I strongly suspect they'd object vociferously, unless they were looking for reasons to divest themselves of a serious maintenance hog. I mean, really, how hard would it actually have been to do something unpleasant to the entire fleet during the 80's while they were at war with Iraq, or during either of the Persian Gulf wars? Belushi TD Well if the US Navy does the F-14 Super Tomcat 21 as they where planning, i then assume we will see the F-14 flying some more years. |
|
belushitd
Warrant Officer
Posts: 205
Likes: 258
|
Post by belushitd on Feb 10, 2022 20:18:42 GMT
Ehhh. Maybe. Depends on what other butterflies may have come out of the purchase. I doubt the RAF/RN would take kindly to being told by the US "Scrap the F-14s.". For some reason, I strongly suspect they'd object vociferously, unless they were looking for reasons to divest themselves of a serious maintenance hog. I mean, really, how hard would it actually have been to do something unpleasant to the entire fleet during the 80's while they were at war with Iraq, or during either of the Persian Gulf wars? Belushi TD Well if the US Navy does the F-14 Super Tomcat 21 as they where planning, i then assume we will see the F-14 flying some more years. Well, if the RAF/Fleet Air Arm and/or the Aussies have F-14s, it might increase the likelihood of the program going through, as there will be more countries to spread the cost across. And probably a longer production run as well. And maybe the F-14D model. Belushi TD |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Feb 10, 2022 20:24:55 GMT
Well if the US Navy does the F-14 Super Tomcat 21 as they where planning, i then assume we will see the F-14 flying some more years. Well, if the RAF/Fleet Air Arm and/or the Aussies have F-14s, it might increase the likelihood of the program going through, as there will be more countries to spread the cost across. And probably a longer production run as well. And maybe the F-14D model. Belushi TD a RAAF F-14 would look nice:  |
|
|
|
Post by millsyman on Sept 3, 2024 9:30:04 GMT
Given that the Tornado ADV role was to be an anti long range bomber missile truck (not an interceptor) to stooge around over the north sea to stop Backfire raids i would imagine that a UK F14 would have operated in same way so from east anglia/scotland.
The F16 wouldnt have met the requierment, the F15 maybe.
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,851
Likes: 13,234
|
Post by stevep on Sept 3, 2024 11:31:37 GMT
Given that the Tornado ADV role was to be an anti long range bomber missile truck (not an interceptor) to stooge around over the north sea to stop Backfire raids i would imagine that a UK F14 would have operated in same way so from east anglia/scotland. The F16 wouldnt have met the requierment, the F15 maybe.
Probably even more so as Lordroel was mentioning the plane for the RAAF - i.e. the Royal Australian Air Force, which has even longer distances to cover.  |
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 68,022
Likes: 49,423
|
Post by lordroel on Sept 3, 2024 13:56:48 GMT
Given that the Tornado ADV role was to be an anti long range bomber missile truck (not an interceptor) to stooge around over the north sea to stop Backfire raids i would imagine that a UK F14 would have operated in same way so from east anglia/scotland. The F16 wouldnt have met the requierment, the F15 maybe. |
|
michelvan
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 488
Likes: 804
|
Post by michelvan on Sept 7, 2024 8:34:27 GMT
Side Note
Grumman proposed in 1968/69 the German Government the F-14 as Fighter for Bundesluftwaffe.
Even with deal were those F-14 are build in Germany or with german build parts.
Why it not happen ?
First the F-14 prototype had not flew yet.
Second Germany was in European program called Multi-Role Aircraft 75 to replace the F-104 Starfighter.
It was original a F-14 like fighter, until Britain join the program and MRA-75 turn into Panavia Tornado.
The Bundesluftwaffe bought additional F-4 Phantom as interceptors support the Tornado.
and began on Project Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90 transform to Future European Fighter Aircraft what became the Eurofighter.
|
|
ukron
Commander
"Beware of the French"
Posts: 1,433
Likes: 2,383
|
Post by ukron on Sept 9, 2024 12:44:52 GMT
Side Note Grumman proposed in 1968/69 the German Government the F-14 as Fighter for Bundesluftwaffe. Even with deal were those F-14 are build in Germany or with german build parts. Why it not happen ? First the F-14 prototype had not flew yet. Second Germany was in European program called Multi-Role Aircraft 75 to replace the F-104 Starfighter. It was original a F-14 like fighter, until Britain join the program and MRA-75 turn into Panavia Tornado. The Bundesluftwaffe bought additional F-4 Phantom as interceptors support the Tornado. and began on Project Taktisches Kampfflugzeug 90 transform to Future European Fighter Aircraft what became the Eurofighter. Now I'm interested, any leads on sources ? |
|
