Post by lordroel on Nov 27, 2021 18:02:47 GMT
Building Poland ’s Fantasy Fleet
So from this article on Avalanche Press comes Poland’s Fantasy Fleet
How would this effect the Battle of Poland in 1939 ore would it not matter much in the end of the Polish Navy was bigger than OTL.
After the First World War, Poland demanded part of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Russian fleets as reparations, and on the ground that Polish taxes had helped pay for the ships. They got nothing, apparently in part because their French allies hoped to sell them some aged warships – perhaps even part of their cut of the High Seas Fleet.
The more modern German warships were scuttled at Scapa Flow in June 1919, while the Russian battleships eventually fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks, who were not interested in handing them over. The Poles did seek an old French armored cruiser for use as a training ship, and eventually acquired an ancient protected cruiser suitable for stationary training, but nothing more.
The battleship Wielkopolska (“Great Poland”) is a former German dreadnought of the Helgoland class, the most modern battleships not lost at Scapa Flow. She’s been converted to oil fuel, for the sake of her training mission, but like the training ships of other navies she’s had several boilers removed to provide additional accommodation space, reducing her speed. She still carriers her dozen 12-inch guns, and has been fitted with examples of all the anti-aircraft guns used in the Polish fleet.
The first new ships the Poles sought were a trio of French-built light cruisers, plus destroyers, submarines and supporting craft. This “maximum program” as devised by Admiral Kazimierez Porebski also had a corresponding “minimum program.” After Marshal Josef Pilsudski overthrew the elected civilian government in May 1926, the French became less willing to guarantee Polish credit with their shipyards, and the minimum program became the basis for new Polish ship orders.
Had the Poles built cruisers in 1926, they would have been modified sister ships to the French Duguay-Trouin. They carry eight 6-inch guns, torpedoes, and a fairly light anti-aircraft armament, and have almost no armor protection. No names were ever assigned; we’ve named them after General Jozef Haller, legendary commander of the “Blue Army” and founder of the Polish Navy, and Pilsudski, who hated the idea of a Polish Navy but whose political influence at the time was unchallenged.
The Polish Navy’s French connection soured in the early 1930’s, with the Poles unhappy with the cost overruns and poor construction of the large minelayer Gryf. Poland looked to Dutch yards for new submarines, and also discussed construction of larger warships there. With the death of Pilsudski in 1935, the Polish Navy’s political outlook seemed much brighter.
In 1936, Polish newspapers reported that a new “maximum program” had been drafted, calling for two 25,000-ton battle cruisers and two heavy cruisers to be built in Dutch yards. Later reports added more details, that the program also included a seaplane-carrying cruiser, a dozen destroyers plus submarines and smaller craft. Poland’s Navy Minister, Vice Admiral Jerzy Swirski, acknowledged after the war that the plan was crafted for the benefit of the League of Nations Disarmament Conference then still struggling along in Geneva, so that Poland could bargain away her mighty paper fleet.
That doesn’t stop us from creating that fleet. The two battle cruisers as shown in our variant are very similar to the Dutch battle cruiser proposed for the Royal Netherlands Navy’s 1939 fleet program, with heavier secondary armament but retaining the Dutch emphasis on anti-aircraft defense – a prudent step for a ship operating in the narrow Baltic Sea. These powerful ships would have proven a match for the German Scharnhorst or Soviet Projekt 69 types. Our two ships are named for two of Poland’s greatest warrior-kings.
The heavy cruisers are a Dutch design variant, sketched but never built, based originally on the German Admiral Hipper design, which the Dutch admired but considered under-armed for its size (much larger than the so-called “Treaty cruisers” of other nations). The Polish ships presented here carry ten 8-inch guns, plus torpedoes and that heavy Dutch anti-aircraft suite. These two ships are named for Poland’s greatest cities.
The aircraft-carrying cruiser would have been a copy of the Swedish Gotland, a ship admired by just about every navy except Sweden’s. In Polish service she would have carried a more effective seaplane than the aging Hawker Ospreys operated by the Swedes, probably the Cant Z.506 (check out the new drawing very closely). Our version is named for Poland’s greatest victory, the 1410 Battle of Tannenberg (Grunwaldem in Polish).
Finally, the Polish program included a dozen more destroyers of the Grom class, four of which are already present in Sea of Iron (the two that actually saw service, and the two under construction at Gdynia when the Germans overran Poland). These British-designed boats are big, powerful and very fast – equal to any destroyers in the world at the time of their design. A Polish fleet with 16 of these wolves of the sea is a force with which to reckon.
This comes from the Second Polish Republic article on Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers
After 123 years of foreign occupation, Poland once again became an independent nation as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Immediately, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine (during its short-lived pre-Soviet independence), and the USSR fought a series of wars starting in 1918 and ending in 1922 that determined Poland's eastern borders. Tensions between Poland and Germany, and Poland and Czechoslovakia were also high, as Poland had claims on Czechoslovakian Silesia, and Germany resented the loss of territory. As a result, Poland was an aggressive state seeking to reclaim its historic borders while being surrounded by hostile forces attempting to do the same to Poland.
Due to its small coastline, Poland felt it didn't require a large navy to protect its sealanes, and due to the global depression Poland couldn't afford to build a massive navy and had no experience building warships. As such, Poland looked abroad to bolster its navy. Prior to 1939, Poland felt its primary enemy was the USSR, not Germany. Initially, Poland looked to France and bought 2 destroyers and 3 submarines, but due to their exceptionally poor quality, Poland later purchased destroyers from the UK and submarines from the Dutch. Poland's ultimate goal was to build its own ships larger than minesweepers and expand its arms industry. In 1935, after Germany's rearmament started, a "central industrial center" was proposed and some work started with the goal of it being completed by 1941. The idea was to create a massive industrial area between the Vistula and San rivers, away from both the German and Soviet borders, in order to fuel the growing Polish military and overall economy. This industrial area didn't reach its intended size.
Ships in service in 1936
1 D`Entrecasteaux-class Light Cruiser (renamed the Baltyk, this ship was built in 1899 in France and sold to Poland as a hulk in 1927; it had little to no combat value)
2 Wicher-class Destroyers (French-built destroyers)
3 Wilk-class Submarines (French-built subs)
Additional ships commissioned by 1939
2 Grom-class Destroyers (UK-built destroyers)
2 Orzel-class Submarines (Dutch-built subs, the Orzel had a very interesting career)
Ships launched in 1939
2 Huragan-class Destroyers (construction started in July '37, scrapped by Germany; these were built in Gdynia by Poland itself)
2 unknown-class Submarines (laid down in France, never named, scrapped by Germany)
Poland also had many naval expansion plans, none of which were feasible due to economic reasons (notice the differences between the two 1920 build plans
. The lists below are for the total fleet size. At the time the 1936 plan was made, Poland's navy consisted of only 2 destroyers and 3 submarines plus smaller vessels from the 1924 Plan, and only 2 additional destroyers and 2 additional submarines were delivered by the time the war started. The 1936 build plan was to be completed by 1942, with the bulk of the ships being built in Poland itself starting in 1940. The following are official expansion plans that were approved by Poland's government.
Russian Empire ships claimed by Poland*
2 Gangut-class Battleships
2 Svetlana-class cruisers (both unfinished)
10 destroyers
5 submarines
1st 1920 Plan
2 Battleships (these are NOT the Ganguts from above)
6 Light Cruisers
28 Destroyers
45 Submarines
2nd 1920 Plan (revision of the 1st 1920 Plan)
1 Light Cruiser
4 Destroyers
2 Submarines
1924 Plan (revision of the 2nd 1920 Plan)
2 Light Cruisers
6 Destroyers (2 delivered)
12 Submarines (3 delivered)
1936 expansion plan (revision of the 1924 Plan)
8 Destroyers (2 delivered, 2 already existing from '24 plan, 2 under construction when the war started)
12 Submarines (2 delivered, 3 already from '24 plan, 2 under construction in France when war started)
So from this article on Avalanche Press comes Poland’s Fantasy Fleet
How would this effect the Battle of Poland in 1939 ore would it not matter much in the end of the Polish Navy was bigger than OTL.
After the First World War, Poland demanded part of the German, Austro-Hungarian and Russian fleets as reparations, and on the ground that Polish taxes had helped pay for the ships. They got nothing, apparently in part because their French allies hoped to sell them some aged warships – perhaps even part of their cut of the High Seas Fleet.
The more modern German warships were scuttled at Scapa Flow in June 1919, while the Russian battleships eventually fell into the hands of the Bolsheviks, who were not interested in handing them over. The Poles did seek an old French armored cruiser for use as a training ship, and eventually acquired an ancient protected cruiser suitable for stationary training, but nothing more.
The battleship Wielkopolska (“Great Poland”) is a former German dreadnought of the Helgoland class, the most modern battleships not lost at Scapa Flow. She’s been converted to oil fuel, for the sake of her training mission, but like the training ships of other navies she’s had several boilers removed to provide additional accommodation space, reducing her speed. She still carriers her dozen 12-inch guns, and has been fitted with examples of all the anti-aircraft guns used in the Polish fleet.
The first new ships the Poles sought were a trio of French-built light cruisers, plus destroyers, submarines and supporting craft. This “maximum program” as devised by Admiral Kazimierez Porebski also had a corresponding “minimum program.” After Marshal Josef Pilsudski overthrew the elected civilian government in May 1926, the French became less willing to guarantee Polish credit with their shipyards, and the minimum program became the basis for new Polish ship orders.
Had the Poles built cruisers in 1926, they would have been modified sister ships to the French Duguay-Trouin. They carry eight 6-inch guns, torpedoes, and a fairly light anti-aircraft armament, and have almost no armor protection. No names were ever assigned; we’ve named them after General Jozef Haller, legendary commander of the “Blue Army” and founder of the Polish Navy, and Pilsudski, who hated the idea of a Polish Navy but whose political influence at the time was unchallenged.
The Polish Navy’s French connection soured in the early 1930’s, with the Poles unhappy with the cost overruns and poor construction of the large minelayer Gryf. Poland looked to Dutch yards for new submarines, and also discussed construction of larger warships there. With the death of Pilsudski in 1935, the Polish Navy’s political outlook seemed much brighter.
In 1936, Polish newspapers reported that a new “maximum program” had been drafted, calling for two 25,000-ton battle cruisers and two heavy cruisers to be built in Dutch yards. Later reports added more details, that the program also included a seaplane-carrying cruiser, a dozen destroyers plus submarines and smaller craft. Poland’s Navy Minister, Vice Admiral Jerzy Swirski, acknowledged after the war that the plan was crafted for the benefit of the League of Nations Disarmament Conference then still struggling along in Geneva, so that Poland could bargain away her mighty paper fleet.
That doesn’t stop us from creating that fleet. The two battle cruisers as shown in our variant are very similar to the Dutch battle cruiser proposed for the Royal Netherlands Navy’s 1939 fleet program, with heavier secondary armament but retaining the Dutch emphasis on anti-aircraft defense – a prudent step for a ship operating in the narrow Baltic Sea. These powerful ships would have proven a match for the German Scharnhorst or Soviet Projekt 69 types. Our two ships are named for two of Poland’s greatest warrior-kings.
The heavy cruisers are a Dutch design variant, sketched but never built, based originally on the German Admiral Hipper design, which the Dutch admired but considered under-armed for its size (much larger than the so-called “Treaty cruisers” of other nations). The Polish ships presented here carry ten 8-inch guns, plus torpedoes and that heavy Dutch anti-aircraft suite. These two ships are named for Poland’s greatest cities.
The aircraft-carrying cruiser would have been a copy of the Swedish Gotland, a ship admired by just about every navy except Sweden’s. In Polish service she would have carried a more effective seaplane than the aging Hawker Ospreys operated by the Swedes, probably the Cant Z.506 (check out the new drawing very closely). Our version is named for Poland’s greatest victory, the 1410 Battle of Tannenberg (Grunwaldem in Polish).
Finally, the Polish program included a dozen more destroyers of the Grom class, four of which are already present in Sea of Iron (the two that actually saw service, and the two under construction at Gdynia when the Germans overran Poland). These British-designed boats are big, powerful and very fast – equal to any destroyers in the world at the time of their design. A Polish fleet with 16 of these wolves of the sea is a force with which to reckon.
This comes from the Second Polish Republic article on Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers
After 123 years of foreign occupation, Poland once again became an independent nation as a result of the Treaty of Versailles. Immediately, Poland, Lithuania, Ukraine (during its short-lived pre-Soviet independence), and the USSR fought a series of wars starting in 1918 and ending in 1922 that determined Poland's eastern borders. Tensions between Poland and Germany, and Poland and Czechoslovakia were also high, as Poland had claims on Czechoslovakian Silesia, and Germany resented the loss of territory. As a result, Poland was an aggressive state seeking to reclaim its historic borders while being surrounded by hostile forces attempting to do the same to Poland.
Due to its small coastline, Poland felt it didn't require a large navy to protect its sealanes, and due to the global depression Poland couldn't afford to build a massive navy and had no experience building warships. As such, Poland looked abroad to bolster its navy. Prior to 1939, Poland felt its primary enemy was the USSR, not Germany. Initially, Poland looked to France and bought 2 destroyers and 3 submarines, but due to their exceptionally poor quality, Poland later purchased destroyers from the UK and submarines from the Dutch. Poland's ultimate goal was to build its own ships larger than minesweepers and expand its arms industry. In 1935, after Germany's rearmament started, a "central industrial center" was proposed and some work started with the goal of it being completed by 1941. The idea was to create a massive industrial area between the Vistula and San rivers, away from both the German and Soviet borders, in order to fuel the growing Polish military and overall economy. This industrial area didn't reach its intended size.
Ships in service in 1936
1 D`Entrecasteaux-class Light Cruiser (renamed the Baltyk, this ship was built in 1899 in France and sold to Poland as a hulk in 1927; it had little to no combat value)
2 Wicher-class Destroyers (French-built destroyers)
3 Wilk-class Submarines (French-built subs)
Additional ships commissioned by 1939
2 Grom-class Destroyers (UK-built destroyers)
2 Orzel-class Submarines (Dutch-built subs, the Orzel had a very interesting career)
Ships launched in 1939
2 Huragan-class Destroyers (construction started in July '37, scrapped by Germany; these were built in Gdynia by Poland itself)
2 unknown-class Submarines (laid down in France, never named, scrapped by Germany)
Poland also had many naval expansion plans, none of which were feasible due to economic reasons (notice the differences between the two 1920 build plans
. The lists below are for the total fleet size. At the time the 1936 plan was made, Poland's navy consisted of only 2 destroyers and 3 submarines plus smaller vessels from the 1924 Plan, and only 2 additional destroyers and 2 additional submarines were delivered by the time the war started. The 1936 build plan was to be completed by 1942, with the bulk of the ships being built in Poland itself starting in 1940. The following are official expansion plans that were approved by Poland's government.Russian Empire ships claimed by Poland*
2 Gangut-class Battleships
2 Svetlana-class cruisers (both unfinished)
10 destroyers
5 submarines
1st 1920 Plan
2 Battleships (these are NOT the Ganguts from above)
6 Light Cruisers
28 Destroyers
45 Submarines
2nd 1920 Plan (revision of the 1st 1920 Plan)
1 Light Cruiser
4 Destroyers
2 Submarines
1924 Plan (revision of the 2nd 1920 Plan)
2 Light Cruisers
6 Destroyers (2 delivered)
12 Submarines (3 delivered)
1936 expansion plan (revision of the 1924 Plan)
8 Destroyers (2 delivered, 2 already existing from '24 plan, 2 under construction when the war started)
12 Submarines (2 delivered, 3 already from '24 plan, 2 under construction in France when war started)
