kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Nov 5, 2021 18:34:54 GMT
What if Henry VIII does not have any sons with any of his 7 wives, what would happen to him and the church that he established and his daughters that he bastardized if he failed to sire any sons with any of his 7 wives?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 6, 2021 11:27:38 GMT
What if Henry VIII does not have any sons with any of his 7 wives, what would happen to him and the church that he established and his daughters that he bastardized if he failed to sire any sons with any of his 7 wives? Would that also include Henry FitzRoy, 1st Duke of Richmond and Somerset, his child by his mistress Elizabeth Blount. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 6, 2021 11:56:37 GMT
What if Henry VIII does not have any sons with any of his 7 wives, what would happen to him and the church that he established and his daughters that he bastardized if he failed to sire any sons with any of his 7 wives?
It would probably mean Mary coming to the throne earlier but how long she ruled, whether there's still the marriage with Philip II and how England fares under her rule as to whether or not Elizabeth succeeds her.
Unless possibly there is a stronger support for say Lady Jane Grey although her OTL marriage to Dudley wouldn't have happened TTL. If Henry VIII dies in 1547 as OTL she's only going to be 10-11 at this stage so is distinctly weaker as a claimant. Mind you without Edward as an option at all he could simply have Elizabeth as his heir to maintain his policies. Which might prompt a Catholic uprising in support of Mary. Or once he accepts he's not going to have a son make his peace with Mary?
Henry actually had 6 wives.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Nov 6, 2021 12:00:07 GMT
Unless possibly there is a stronger support for say Lady Jane Grey although her OTL marriage to Dudley wouldn't have happened TTL. If Henry VIII dies in 1547 as OTL she's only going to be 10-11 at this stage so is distinctly weaker as a claimant. Mind you without Edward as an option at all he could simply have Elizabeth as his heir to maintain his policies. Which might prompt a Catholic uprising in support of Mary. Or once he accepts he's not going to have a son make his peace with Mary?
So we could end up with a Civil War. |
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Post by halferking on Nov 6, 2021 12:26:10 GMT
If Henry had no male heirs then in accordance with the Succession to the Crown Act 1533 (known in OTL as The First Succession Act), if it has not been repealed, the Lady Elizabeth is heir apparent. This would be preferable to a Roman Catholic. How the Lady Mary would respond is another matter? She might seek to enforce her claim to the Throne and attempt to remove Elizabeth...
The Reformation would have happened as it was Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon that was the catalyst for England breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and not the gender of any baby.
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Post by halferking on Nov 6, 2021 13:00:53 GMT
What if Henry VIII does not have any sons with any of his 7 wives, what would happen to him and the church that he established and his daughters that he bastardized if he failed to sire any sons with any of his 7 wives?
It would probably mean Mary coming to the throne earlier but how long she ruled, whether there's still the marriage with Philip II and how England fares under her rule as to whether or not Elizabeth succeeds her.
Unless possibly there is a stronger support for say Lady Jane Grey although her OTL marriage to Dudley wouldn't have happened TTL. If Henry VIII dies in 1547 as OTL she's only going to be 10-11 at this stage so is distinctly weaker as a claimant. Mind you without Edward as an option at all he could simply have Elizabeth as his heir to maintain his policies. Which might prompt a Catholic uprising in support of Mary. Or once he accepts he's not going to have a son make his peace with Mary?
Henry actually had 6 wives.
The Third Act of Succession 1554 (3rd Act) not only restored Mary and Elizabeth to the Line of Succession it also fixed the Line of Succession on Edward, his children, any children to Henry's sixth wife Catherine Parr and any children to any subsequent wife. The Treason Act 1547 made it a crime to interfere with the Line of Succession established under the 3rd Act. Edward VI, probably driven by the fear that his eldest sister might try to undo the Reformation, sought to get round The Treason Act by creating a 'Devise for the Succession' which named Lady Jane Grey, the eldest daughter of the King's cousin Frances Brandon, Duchess of Suffolk and Henry Grey, 1st Duke of Suffolk, as Heir Apparent. Jane's Husband Lord Guilford Dudley was the son of the Duke of Northumberland and he was the one who was, I suspect, pulling Edward's strings so it stands to reason that without Edward Lady Jane would be a nobody. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 6, 2021 13:28:11 GMT
If Henry had no male heirs then in accordance with the Succession to the Crown Act 1533 (known in OTL as The First Succession Act), if it has not been repealed, the Lady Elizabeth is heir apparent. This would be preferable to a Roman Catholic. How the Lady Mary would respond is another matter? She might seek to enforce her claim to the Throne and attempt to remove Elizabeth... The Reformation would have happened as it was Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon that was the catalyst for England breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and not the gender of any baby.
Yes the reformation in England had already gained power but OTL, despite 6 years under a devoutly Protestant Edward Mary was still accepted as his successor when he died. Here without Edward at all then Elizabeth is the successor that Henry is likely to prefer, despite accusing her mother of adultery and executing her but Mary is still likely to have a following, as well as the bulk of foreign support possibly. At this stage while the reformation has put down roots its not certain it would survive. Think of Bohemia which seems to have been securely Lutheran in 1618 but was forced back into the Catholic camp fairly early in the 30 years war.
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Nov 6, 2021 17:06:24 GMT
But the problem here is that Elizabeth and Mary here would stay as bastards and he would still try.
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Post by halferking on Nov 6, 2021 18:39:36 GMT
But the problem here is that Elizabeth and Mary here would stay as bastards and he would still try. The optimal result of any union between Henry and whomever he chose was male heirs; however his relationships often failed to bear fruit. Catherine of Aragon has several miscarriages before Mary. Anne Boleyn had Elizabeth. Jane Seymour had Edward. Henry wasn't excited by Anne of Cleves. Catherine Howard... Catherine Parr - he died. Henry may have kept trying, but even he would realise that he needed to make provisions so what would he do... |
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Post by halferking on Nov 6, 2021 19:20:35 GMT
If Henry had no male heirs then in accordance with the Succession to the Crown Act 1533 (known in OTL as The First Succession Act), if it has not been repealed, the Lady Elizabeth is heir apparent. This would be preferable to a Roman Catholic. How the Lady Mary would respond is another matter? She might seek to enforce her claim to the Throne and attempt to remove Elizabeth... The Reformation would have happened as it was Henry's divorce from Catherine of Aragon that was the catalyst for England breaking away from the Roman Catholic Church and not the gender of any baby.
Yes the reformation in England had already gained power but OTL, despite 6 years under a devoutly Protestant Edward Mary was still accepted as his successor when he died. Here without Edward at all then Elizabeth is the successor that Henry is likely to prefer, despite accusing her mother of adultery and executing her but Mary is still likely to have a following, as well as the bulk of foreign support possibly. At this stage while the reformation has put down roots its not certain it would survive. Think of Bohemia which seems to have been securely Lutheran in 1618 but was forced back into the Catholic camp fairly early in the 30 years war.
Mary relied on the 3rd Act to take the Throne from Jane and she had some powerful allies behind her. If Edward was never born then no 3rd Act and Mary would still be a bastard. Elizabeth would, by virtue of the Succession of the Crown Act 1533, become the heir apparent - a Protestant was what everyone wanted. It would come down to whether Mary would tried to oust her sister she had the support. If Elizabeth has the ability to withstand any attack. Or would the Line of Succession be restored and Mary would rightfully become Queen. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Nov 7, 2021 15:39:38 GMT
Yes the reformation in England had already gained power but OTL, despite 6 years under a devoutly Protestant Edward Mary was still accepted as his successor when he died. Here without Edward at all then Elizabeth is the successor that Henry is likely to prefer, despite accusing her mother of adultery and executing her but Mary is still likely to have a following, as well as the bulk of foreign support possibly. At this stage while the reformation has put down roots its not certain it would survive. Think of Bohemia which seems to have been securely Lutheran in 1618 but was forced back into the Catholic camp fairly early in the 30 years war.
Mary relied on the 3rd Act to take the Throne from Jane and she had some powerful allies behind her. If Edward was never born then no 3rd Act and Mary would still be a bastard. Elizabeth would, by virtue of the Succession of the Crown Act 1533, become the heir apparent - a Protestant was what everyone wanted. It would come down to whether Mary would tried to oust her sister she had the support. If Elizabeth has the ability to withstand any attack. Or would the Line of Succession be restored and Mary would rightfully become Queen. Perhaps the lords in England would try to get the hands of Mary and Elizabeth. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Nov 7, 2021 21:26:43 GMT
Mary relied on the 3rd Act to take the Throne from Jane and she had some powerful allies behind her. If Edward was never born then no 3rd Act and Mary would still be a bastard. Elizabeth would, by virtue of the Succession of the Crown Act 1533, become the heir apparent - a Protestant was what everyone wanted. It would come down to whether Mary would tried to oust her sister she had the support. If Elizabeth has the ability to withstand any attack. Or would the Line of Succession be restored and Mary would rightfully become Queen. Perhaps the lords in England would try to get the hands of Mary and Elizabeth.
Quite likely with Elizabeth as she's still quite young and they may think her malleable - although they could find themselves badly mistaken there.  Mary would be old enough that she would probably want to decide her own marriage as well as possibly, as OTL, look for a Catholic monarch to help in securing her power in England. |
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Post by halferking on Nov 7, 2021 21:33:18 GMT
Mary relied on the 3rd Act to take the Throne from Jane and she had some powerful allies behind her. If Edward was never born then no 3rd Act and Mary would still be a bastard. Elizabeth would, by virtue of the Succession of the Crown Act 1533, become the heir apparent - a Protestant was what everyone wanted. It would come down to whether Mary would tried to oust her sister she had the support. If Elizabeth has the ability to withstand any attack. Or would the Line of Succession be restored and Mary would rightfully become Queen. Perhaps the lords in England would try to get the hands of Mary and Elizabeth. Elizabeth was born in 1533. Mary was born in 1516. Henry VIII died in 1547. England we have a problem... In OTL Edward was beset by ill-health so Mary knew that she would be Queen. What if Elizabeth becomes Queen in 1547, with no chance of her dying young Mary would perhaps conclude that unless she presses her claim now she will never be Queen. Mary was not a particular impulsive individual she had a water tight claim to the Throne and the People were not overly fond of Lady Jane Grey. Mary earned the sobriquet 'Bloody Mary' for her harsh persecution of Protestants (300 burned to death), but she knew which side her bread was buttered and therefore even she had to navigate the political landscape carefully. Many of the people she needed had been made wealthy and very, very powerful through the confiscation of lands belonging to the Monasteries and she could ill afford to alienate them. The Nobles feared Mary would undo the Reformation, but in the end her counter-reformation failed and in fact only served to breath fire into the lungs of the Reformation. The Lady Elizabeth was just 14 when her father died. In OTL Henry had made provision for the young Edward (9) he would be crowned King, but a Regency Council would govern in his name until he came of age. In the ATL Henry has two choices reinstate Mary or create a Regency to govern until Elizabeth turned 18. If Henry chooses the latter then Mary would then either have to accept it or war... The thing is men with power don't give it up easily and the Nobles may weigh up their prospects - a Roman Catholic Queen and possible death and/or confiscation to follow or throw their lot in with Elizabeth knowing that she was Protestant and would not pose a threat to their power. Another issue - A Regency is all good and well but can Elizabeth command the loyalty of her councilmen and would they be willing to simply give up power. I suspect the young Queen would have to learn quickly who she could trust. The primary job the Regency would be to shore up Elizabeth's rule so naturally as happened the issue of a matrimonial union would have to be brought up - a powerful Protestant would help to counter any move Mary might make. |
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kasumigenx
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Post by kasumigenx on Nov 14, 2021 7:37:47 GMT
Perhaps the lords in England would try to get the hands of Mary and Elizabeth. Elizabeth was born in 1533. Mary was born in 1516. Henry VIII died in 1547. England we have a problem... In OTL Edward was beset by ill-health so Mary knew that she would be Queen. What if Elizabeth becomes Queen in 1547, with no chance of her dying young Mary would perhaps conclude that unless she presses her claim now she will never be Queen. Mary was not a particular impulsive individual she had a water tight claim to the Throne and the People were not overly fond of Lady Jane Grey. Mary earned the sobriquet 'Bloody Mary' for her harsh persecution of Protestants (300 burned to death), but she knew which side her bread was buttered and therefore even she had to navigate the political landscape carefully. Many of the people she needed had been made wealthy and very, very powerful through the confiscation of lands belonging to the Monasteries and she could ill afford to alienate them. The Nobles feared Mary would undo the Reformation, but in the end her counter-reformation failed and in fact only served to breath fire into the lungs of the Reformation. The Lady Elizabeth was just 14 when her father died. In OTL Henry had made provision for the young Edward (9) he would be crowned King, but a Regency Council would govern in his name until he came of age. In the ATL Henry has two choices reinstate Mary or create a Regency to govern until Elizabeth turned 18. If Henry chooses the latter then Mary would then either have to accept it or war... The thing is men with power don't give it up easily and the Nobles may weigh up their prospects - a Roman Catholic Queen and possible death and/or confiscation to follow or throw their lot in with Elizabeth knowing that she was Protestant and would not pose a threat to their power. Another issue - A Regency is all good and well but can Elizabeth command the loyalty of her councilmen and would they be willing to simply give up power. I suspect the young Queen would have to learn quickly who she could trust. The primary job the Regency would be to shore up Elizabeth's rule so naturally as happened the issue of a matrimonial union would have to be brought up - a powerful Protestant would help to counter any move Mary might make. Here Elizabeth and Mary both become bastards. |
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Post by halferking on Nov 14, 2021 11:24:42 GMT
Elizabeth was born in 1533. Mary was born in 1516. Henry VIII died in 1547. England we have a problem... In OTL Edward was beset by ill-health so Mary knew that she would be Queen. What if Elizabeth becomes Queen in 1547, with no chance of her dying young Mary would perhaps conclude that unless she presses her claim now she will never be Queen. Mary was not a particular impulsive individual she had a water tight claim to the Throne and the People were not overly fond of Lady Jane Grey. Mary earned the sobriquet 'Bloody Mary' for her harsh persecution of Protestants (300 burned to death), but she knew which side her bread was buttered and therefore even she had to navigate the political landscape carefully. Many of the people she needed had been made wealthy and very, very powerful through the confiscation of lands belonging to the Monasteries and she could ill afford to alienate them. The Nobles feared Mary would undo the Reformation, but in the end her counter-reformation failed and in fact only served to breath fire into the lungs of the Reformation. The Lady Elizabeth was just 14 when her father died. In OTL Henry had made provision for the young Edward (9) he would be crowned King, but a Regency Council would govern in his name until he came of age. In the ATL Henry has two choices reinstate Mary or create a Regency to govern until Elizabeth turned 18. If Henry chooses the latter then Mary would then either have to accept it or war... The thing is men with power don't give it up easily and the Nobles may weigh up their prospects - a Roman Catholic Queen and possible death and/or confiscation to follow or throw their lot in with Elizabeth knowing that she was Protestant and would not pose a threat to their power. Another issue - A Regency is all good and well but can Elizabeth command the loyalty of her councilmen and would they be willing to simply give up power. I suspect the young Queen would have to learn quickly who she could trust. The primary job the Regency would be to shore up Elizabeth's rule so naturally as happened the issue of a matrimonial union would have to be brought up - a powerful Protestant would help to counter any move Mary might make. Here Elizabeth and Mary both become bastards. The Oath of Succession and the First Succession Acts fixed the line of succession on children of Henry and Anne Boleyn. If the Acts are not repealed, as they were when Edward was born, then Elizabeth is the legal heir apparent. Mary however remains a bastard. |
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Mary would be old enough that she would probably want to decide her own marriage as well as possibly, as OTL, look for a Catholic monarch to help in securing her power in England.