Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 2, 2021 19:08:57 GMT
While I have yet to write a serious TL myself, I’m nonetheless fascinated by the diversity of TL formats I’ve seen throughout my three years in the AH community, an observation nicely summed up in this AH.com post here. Most TLs I’ve seen are either a) lists of dates and corresponding events (i.e. September 1st, 1939: Germany invades Poland; World War II begins.) or b) they’re omniscient third-person narrations that explore characters, events, and trends from both up-close and afar. There are a few, however, formatted in a way that I find more unique or “engaging”, especially when they seem as if they were written “in-universe” by scholars and eyewitnesses who literally live in the TL in question. One is written as an academic seminar complete with lectures and dialogue from students and professor alike, while another is presented as the ongoing log of a timeline-hopping exploratory force. I’ve also encountered TLs written as collections of excerpts from in-universe books and documents, such as this Al-Anadus themed one here or a Jewish Blackshirt’s history-altering sacrifice changing Il Duce’s attitude towards Jews here. All of which have their own pros and cons, to be sure, which I hope to discuss at length in this thread. I myself am thinking of writing some TLs that draw inspiration from these examples (and have posted an idea or two as to the subject matter), with the format being the abridged version of an in-universe history book (which is to say, it's written by a historian who literally lives in the timeline they’re writing about and has no idea “their” work is being read by a bunch of online hobbyists from an alternate timeline). Naturally, the prose will be more technical and geared towards presenting a more “holistic”, yet detailed account that aims to be as intimate and immersive as real-world history books are (though this approach entails more work on my part). Chapters and occasional interludes aside, I’m also considering having a cover page, some acknowledgements, and an introduction that outlines “the author’s” focus, agenda, and thought process that led them to start writing in the first place. I’d also like to incorporate some of my original artwork, both to avoid copyright issues and to visually supplement the text in ways real-world images cannot (i.e. depicting artifacts made by an allohistorical culture that never emerged IOTL), though this is predicated on me mastering digital art first. I should also ponder trademarking Counterfactual University Press, since “the author” should make note of the institution that facilitated their research and the work’s publication. (You’re all welcome to use both Counterfactual University and Counterfactual University Press, though—so long as you credit and link to me, of course!)  Hopefully, this all makes sense. In any case, I look forward to having some productive exchanges on the merits of different TL formats and which ones work best for which purpose. Thank you in advance, Zyobot |
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Post by redrobin65 on Nov 3, 2021 2:02:36 GMT
Good luck if you do write any TLs! I've always used the standard third-person style but some do draw you into the world the author is writing (especially if they have a specific style). Like you said, the academic scholar format is also generally very good. These two go pretty well together and work for a lot of different scenarios. Wikibox TLs can be a bit dry for me but if they are accompanied by some good prose they can be fun to read.
The date, event one also works well but especially if you are talking about something technical: i.e. weapon advancements.
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Post by fieldmarshal on Nov 3, 2021 9:00:08 GMT
While I have yet to write a serious TL myself, I’m nonetheless fascinated by the diversity of TL formats I’ve seen throughout my three years in the AH community, an observation nicely summed up in this AH.com post here. Most TLs I’ve seen are either a) lists of dates and corresponding events (i.e. September 1st, 1939: Germany invades Poland; World War II begins.) or b) they’re omniscient third-person narrations that explore characters, events, and trends from both up-close and afar. There are a few, however, formatted in a way that I find more unique or “engaging”, especially when they seem as if they were written “in-universe” by scholars and eyewitnesses who literally live in the TL in question. One is written as an academic seminar complete with lectures and dialogue from students and professor alike, while another is presented as the ongoing log of a timeline-hopping exploratory force. I’ve also encountered TLs written as collections of excerpts from in-universe books and documents, such as this Al-Anadus themed one here or a Jewish Blackshirt’s history-altering sacrifice changing Il Duce’s attitude towards Jews here. All of which have their own pros and cons, to be sure, which I hope to discuss at length in this thread. I myself am thinking of writing some TLs that draw inspiration from these examples (and have posted an idea or two as to the subject matter), with the format being the abridged version of an in-universe history book (which is to say, it's written by a historian who literally lives in the timeline they’re writing about and has no idea “their” work is being read by a bunch of online hobbyists from an alternate timeline). Naturally, the prose will be more technical and geared towards presenting a more “holistic”, yet detailed account that aims to be as intimate and immersive as real-world history books are (though this approach entails more work on my part). Chapters and occasional interludes aside, I’m also considering having a cover page, some acknowledgements, and an introduction that outlines “the author’s” focus, agenda, and thought process that led them to start writing in the first place. I’d also like to incorporate some of my original artwork, both to avoid copyright issues and to visually supplement the text in ways real-world images cannot (i.e. depicting artifacts made by an allohistorical culture that never emerged IOTL), though this is predicated on me mastering digital art first. I should also ponder trademarking Counterfactual University Press, since “the author” should make note of the institution that facilitated their research and the work’s publication. (You’re all welcome to use both Counterfactual University and Counterfactual University Press, though—so long as you credit and link to me, of course!) Hopefully, this all makes sense. In any case, I look forward to having some productive exchanges on the merits of different TL formats and which ones work best for which purpose. Thank you in advance, Zyobot Ah, kind of glad you made this thread because this is something I've always had thoughts on! I strongly dislike TLs that are simply "lists of dates," they're the laziest sort IMO. Good for planning a TL I think, and perhaps useful for "fast forwarding" (i.e. -- if you want to write a story about a war you can "fast forward" through the political situation that leads to the war through a list of dates and events - Team Yankee does something similar in it's introduction, briefly setting the stage for a 1980s WW3 before shifting to the story proper) but as the entirety of the story? Nah. Third person is probably my favorite, as it's my personal writing style for fiction (albeit I unfortunately haven't applied it to my limited AH scribblings). Sometimes third person omniscient and sometimes third person limited, though my personal favorite is "third-person limited shifting" -- i.e., multiple characters, but scenes are written from one character's limited perspective before shifting to another character's limited perspective - sometimes to show multiple events happening over time or simultaneously, and sometimes to show the same event from a multiple PoVs. Two of my favorite AH novels (both Turtledove, and both on the American Civil War -- The Guns of the South and How Few Remain) use the third-person limited format quite well. I don't see a lot of first person AH (a notable exception being Ward Moore's seminal 1953 novel Bring the Jubilee), though I do understand why. Often AH authors want a detailed breakdown of why things went differently and it's extraordinarily hard to do from a first person perspective. Bring the Jubilee gets away with it because the author is a trained historian writing a personal account of his alternate timeline after a time travel mishap leaves him stuck in OTL -- but if you're not using such a specific premise, your character might come across as unrealistic when he or she provides info dumps on what the PoD was and how the world is different because of it. It all depends on the story you're trying to tell! I definitely love false documents! Particularly in the form of news articles, excerpts from history books, interviews and clips from in-universe -- that generally tends to be a style I lean towards in alternate history. I blame two AH.com TLs about alternate 1990s in particular for this -- A Giant Sucking Sound and Zhirinovsky's Russian Empire, which were comprised entirely of such false documents. If properly done by someone who can accurately write each respective type of document properly, I find it very engaging. By the way, your idea sounds neat! Would love to hear what subjects you choose. The format reminds me a bit of Robert Sobel's For Want of A Nail: If Burgoyne Had Won At Saratoga. Unfortunately I haven't yet read it yet, but I understand the central conceit is similar -- written as an in-universe dissertation on the subject. Also enjoy the concept of incorporating your own art -- is there anywhere I could see some of your work? I know you said you haven't quite mastered it yet, but even so, I'd love to see anything you currently have. |
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,352
Likes: 7,260
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Post by Zyobot on Nov 3, 2021 16:06:24 GMT
Good luck if you do write any TLs! I've always used the standard third-person style but some do draw you into the world the author is writing (especially if they have a specific style). These two go pretty well together and work for a lot of different scenarios. Wikibox TLs can be a bit dry for me but if they are accompanied by some good prose they can be fun to read. Ah, kind of glad you made this thread because this is something I've always had thoughts on! Thanks, fellas! Forgot entirely about Wikibox TLs until redrobin65 mentioned them. Which, unless they’re brief and given context by enough prose, I don’t care for myself. (I can see a case for including some alt-Wiki entries in “Counterfactual Documents” TLs, though!) I can also relate to what fieldmarshal has said, though in my case, it’s more that my fascination had developed “in stages” as I gradually came across different TL formats than the standard-issue, “Date-Event” or “Omniscient Narration” approaches. The Counterfactual Documents one particularly stuck out to me, due to how it was well-designed for chronicling in-universe history through scholarly (or at least, literary) denizens’ eyes. (The book excerpts were well-written on their own, too!) The date, event one also works well but especially if you are talking about something technical: i.e. weapon advancements. that are simply "lists of dates," they're the laziest sort IMO. Good for planning a TL I think, and perhaps useful for "fast forwarding" (i.e. -- if you want to write a story about a war you can "fast forward" through the political situation that leads to the war through a list of dates and events - Team Yankee does something similar in it's introduction, briefly setting the stage for a 1980s WW3 before shifting to the story proper) but as the entirety of the story? Nah. Well, if I find a use for it, I’ll let you know. Props to authors who make those work, but to me, the Date-Event format just looks way too drab and uncreative, not to mention reading as just a chain of events and when they happened, as opposed to presenting a detailed (yet holistic) picture of the how’s and why’s “history” unfolded the way it did. In which case, I’m more in agreement with fieldmarshal here, though using them as a skeletal outline for how you plan to structure a TL might be a good idea (even if it’s not written in a chronological order, I’d think). Third person is probably my favorite, as it's my personal writing style for fiction (albeit I unfortunately haven't applied it to my limited AH scribblings). Sometimes third person omniscient and sometimes third person limited, though my personal favorite is "third-person limited shifting" -- i.e., multiple characters, but scenes are written from one character's limited perspective before shifting to another character's limited perspective - sometimes to show multiple events happening over time or simultaneously, and sometimes to show the same event from a multiple PoVs. Two of my favorite AH novels (both Turtledove, and both on the American Civil War -- The Guns of the South and How Few Remain) use the third-person limited format quite well. Certainly one of the most common I’ve seen, at least of those that elaborate more than Date-Event TLs do. I also tend to prefer third person for pure fiction (as well as fanfiction), but in the case of AH, I feel the opportunity to write a detailed account—such as the one I have planned—through TL denizens’ eyes is too much to pass up. Which I could probably do for original works of mine, anyway, though the difference is more that they’re too “foreign” to write a comprehensive, in-universe history book about without weirding most readers out (though I may include individual characters’ daily logs from time to time, for example). I’d say one potential con of “Shifting Third Person” is how, despite offering a better “sample size” of perspectives than first-person narrations, it still doesn’t synthesize sweeping events and trends into a larger story of how a society, nation, or the whole world changed in a certain timeframe. Ditto since individual players living in the midst of it don’t have the benefit of hindsight or ability to compare and contrast as future historians do (which is not to say eyewitnesses have nothing valuable to contribute, mind you). Speaking of which: I don't see a lot of first person AH (a notable exception being Ward Moore's seminal 1953 novel Bring the Jubilee), though I do understand why. Often AH authors want a detailed breakdown of why things went differently and it's extraordinarily hard to do from a first person perspective. Bring the Jubilee gets away with it because the author is a trained historian writing a personal account of his alternate timeline after a time travel mishap leaves him stuck in OTL -- but if you're not using such a specific premise, your character might come across as unrealistic when he or she provides info dumps on what the PoD was and how the world is different because of it. It all depends on the story you're trying to tell! You sum up my thoughts precisely! Although, as someone who hasn’t read much print AH, I appreciate your tip-offs and will check them out when I have time. Anyhow, your point about unrealistically knowledgeable characters dovetails well with a longstanding pet peeve of mine, which is to make sure their dialogue and thought process match their characterization--their age, occupation, skill-set, etcetera--so that some generic fourteen-year-old doesn’t sound like a college professor with ten doctorates under their belt. Similar problems arise in writing counterfactual accounts by eyewitnesses who aren’t historians, I imagine. I definitely love false documents! Particularly in the form of news articles, excerpts from history books, interviews and clips from in-universe -- that generally tends to be a style I lean towards in alternate history. I blame two AH.com TLs about alternate 1990s in particular for this -- A Giant Sucking Sound and Zhirinovsky's Russian Empire, which were comprised entirely of such false documents. If properly done by someone who can accurately write each respective type of document properly, I find it very engaging. So do I! I certainly haven’t read either of those TLs yet, but will look into them when I have time, like I said before. I’d attempt this format myself, but am disinclined to make it my “default” approach on account of having to slightly tweak my writing style and create multiple "variations" thereof, since different excerpts by different authors consistently having the same grammar, syntax, and general focuses is unrealistic and becomes noticeable after a while. Sure, you can always rely on historians to be highly technical and “meta” in their descriptions (reconciling technical composition with engaging narratives is a trademark conceit of their profession, it seems). However, considering the little nuances in individuals’ writing styles, the conclusions they draw, and whether they’re writing a concise introduction for interested novices or a multi-volume magnum opus for fellow academics, I fear my crack at it would come off as a strange cocktail of repetitive and disarrayed! Maybe I’ll write a Counterfactual Documents TL sometime down the line, but for now, I’ll have to pass. By the way, your idea sounds neat! Would love to hear what subjects you choose. The format reminds me a bit of Robert Sobel's For Want of A Nail: If Burgoyne Had Won At Saratoga. Unfortunately I haven't yet read it yet, but I understand the central conceit is similar -- written as an in-universe dissertation on the subject. Also enjoy the concept of incorporating your own art -- is there anywhere I could see some of your work? I know you said you haven't quite mastered it yet, but even so, I'd love to see anything you currently have. Thanks for the compliments! Seems I forgot to link my Iron Cross Over Europe proposal, which chronicles a twentieth century in which British neutrality allows Germany to win the Great War, which--after a brief peacetime interlude--is then followed by a true World War that ends in a tripartite coalition of Britain, Germany, and the US emerging victorious over revanchist France and Russia (which were slapped with territorial ceding, reparations, and all-around humiliation after Germany won the first round). (The result is an Anglo/American-German Cold War that lasts the remainder of the century, though the problems of continued imperialism and Asian modernization threatening European dominance). Sadly, I have no art to upload (or at least, none that’s easy on the eyes when put through digital resolution. Have yet to set up a DeviantArt account, as well, but once I have that up--sometime within the next five to ten years, I’d say--then I’ll start uploading and creating art I can incorporate into my TLs. That, and my drawings as is are a motley mix of people, mundane objects, and sci-fi settings, with the fact I did most of them a while ago meaning I’m a few years out of practice. Recent doodling doesn’t really offset that, I’m afraid.  Again, though, I appreciate your guys’ interest! I look forward to continuing our exchange when you’re free to reply, and if you have any questions or counterpoints for me, please let me know. My bear of a reply definitely took some time to write, but it’s always worth it when it comes to creative insights such as this. All the best, Zyobot |
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Post by simon darkshade on Nov 5, 2021 2:43:50 GMT
There is a time and place for an events based timeline - as a supplement to the broader written works. It can help keep track of trends, events and progress and is particularly suited to a day by day picture of major wars.
It is only a supplement, though, not a substitute. The better works get up and take you inside the world they are trying to create, letting you walk around and see what it is like, usually from the perspective of a third person or authorial insert. The perspective of an outsider can work, as they naturally ask questions a bit more. The best provide a mix of histories, technical explorations, memoirs and a narrative; humans tend to like stories.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 14, 2022 17:54:04 GMT
Thande's LTTW did this very well indeed, and Jared's "Decades of Darkness" and "Lands of Red and Gold" also show how interestingly AHs can be formatted.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 14, 2022 17:59:54 GMT
Thande's LTTW did this very well indeed, and Jared's "Decades of Darkness" and "Lands of Red and Gold" also show how interestingly AHs can be formatted. Never heard of LTTW, but looking at the Look to the West TV Tropes it does have a orginal POD i never toughed of, George II of Great Britain tripping up on his coronation carpet. |
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Post by Max Sinister on May 14, 2022 18:14:41 GMT
Yes, I'm quite sure it still stays the only TL with that PoD.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 14, 2022 18:15:59 GMT
Yes, I'm quite sure it still stays the only TL with that PoD. Well that makes it original then. |
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Post by Max Sinister on May 14, 2022 18:22:38 GMT
The uncommon PoD, taken by itself, is just a kind of gag. (And even then, he describes it very well.) But the unconventional format is the real interesting thing, esp. since it influences the whole TL.
In my Chaos TL, I tried to imitate LttW and DoD a bit. Most of it is "dates and events", but I also added some story (or several) per post, to make things more colorful.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on May 14, 2022 18:26:51 GMT
The majority of the TLs i have made are that, "dates and events". |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on May 15, 2022 15:58:01 GMT
The uncommon PoD, taken by itself, is just a kind of gag. (And even then, he describes it very well.) But the unconventional format is the real intresting thing, esp. since it influences the whole TL. In my Chaos TL, I tried to imitate LttW and DoD a bit. Most of it is "dates and events", but I also added some story (or several) per post, to make things more colorful.
I wouldn't say a gag. Such things do show how malleable much of history is. It might be meant as a a joke if its does light-heartedly, but that applies to the TL as a whole.
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Post by Max Sinister on May 17, 2022 19:27:40 GMT
Definitely not! TTL's French Revolution manages to be even bloodier and world-changing than OTL's. And the TL is far from over at that point...
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