lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964 
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 16, 2021 10:49:17 GMT
The what-if French Navy ThreadSaw this on the Naval Encyclopedia about the French Navy in World War II related to what-if French Navy scenarios: There are two what-if French Navy scenarios to consider. First: What if the French Navy has maintained its naval construction programme from 1912, including the two new classes of battleships and battlecruisers in the Great war. Second, what if the second world war has erupted two years later, in 1941. There were a whole range of new ships in the yards back then that would have been completed, from the new Joffre class aircraft carriers, Gascoigne class battleships, to the St Louis and De Grasse class cruisers. In the first scenario, the 25,000 tons Normandie class and 29,000 tons Lyon class battleships would have replaced without any doubt the early Courbet, by 1918 already obsolete with their 305 mm guns in lozenge arrangement. The Lyon class in particular, would have been game changers in the Mediterranean if completed, and IF modernized the proper way. In fact if they had been rebuilt as the four Italian battleships of the class Duilio and Caesare were, they would have been very hard to match in any naval battle. With perhaps 35,000 tons including ASW bulkheads, 200+ m with a new prow, and no less than 16 x 340 mm guns, they would have largely surpassed their Italian counterparts indeed or constitute a very serious threat against 380 mm armed British Resolution and Queen Elisabeth battleships in Vichy hands. The second scenario would have seen the constitution of two modern Mediterranean "task forces" centered around modern, fast aircraft carriers capable of operating 40+ aircraft each, where the Italians lacked any of the kind, protected by new battleships of the Gascoigne class that showed a more classical artillery with one quadruple turret at the front and rear, and improved protection. The St Louis heavy cruisers were closely related to the Algérie, with an even improved armoured scheme, and for the first time triple 8 in turrets. They would have been lighter equivalents of the latter US heavy cruisers of the Baltimore class. On the other hand, the new 3900 tonnes Desaix class destroyers would have been improved Mogador, considered as "super destroyers", cultivating an impressive 42 knots top speed and powerful main armament worthy of "pocket cruisers".
|
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 16, 2021 13:31:55 GMT
The what-if French Navy ThreadSaw this on the Naval Encyclopedia about the French Navy in World War II related to what-if French Navy scenarios: There are two what-if French Navy scenarios to consider. First: What if the French Navy has maintained its naval construction programme from 1912, including the two new classes of battleships and battlecruisers in the Great war. Second, what if the second world war has erupted two years later, in 1941. There were a whole range of new ships in the yards back then that would have been completed, from the new Joffre class aircraft carriers, Gascoigne class battleships, to the St Louis and De Grasse class cruisers. In the first scenario, the 25,000 tons Normandie class and 29,000 tons Lyon class battleships would have replaced without any doubt the early Courbet, by 1918 already obsolete with their 305 mm guns in lozenge arrangement. The Lyon class in particular, would have been game changers in the Mediterranean if completed, and IF modernized the proper way. In fact if they had been rebuilt as the four Italian battleships of the class Duilio and Caesare were, they would have been very hard to match in any naval battle. With perhaps 35,000 tons including ASW bulkheads, 200+ m with a new prow, and no less than 16 x 340 mm guns, they would have largely surpassed their Italian counterparts indeed or constitute a very serious threat against 380 mm armed British Resolution and Queen Elisabeth battleships in Vichy hands. The second scenario would have seen the constitution of two modern Mediterranean "task forces" centered around modern, fast aircraft carriers capable of operating 40+ aircraft each, where the Italians lacked any of the kind, protected by new battleships of the Gascoigne class that showed a more classical artillery with one quadruple turret at the front and rear, and improved protection. The St Louis heavy cruisers were closely related to the Algérie, with an even improved armoured scheme, and for the first time triple 8 in turrets. They would have been lighter equivalents of the latter US heavy cruisers of the Baltimore class. On the other hand, the new 3900 tonnes Desaix class destroyers would have been improved Mogador, considered as "super destroyers", cultivating an impressive 42 knots top speed and powerful main armament worthy of "pocket cruisers".
Interesting ideas. Especially possibly in the WWII example, although if war is somehow delayed until 1941 for their completion it would depend on how things developed. OTL Italy only joined the conflict once it saw France was on the verge of collapse so unless Mussolini is a lot rasher and willing to declare war before France is in that plight or if that still happens France fights on there might be little chance of the two forces clashing.
The idea of 3,900 tonne 'super-destroyers' sounds like a pretty bad idea however. Its basically a very small light cruiser in size and probably armament but probably without the armour and sea-keeping ability and historically attempts to operate such ships tended to do badly. Plus with that high speed its likely got a lot of tonnage committed to speed. Although it does remind me a bit of HMS_Manxman, which had similar speed but a bit smaller and was designed as a specialised minelayer.
In WWI I wonder what impact that larger French fleet would have had assuming the war developed as OTL? I.e. basically Italy joined the allies which meant that subs aside the Med was pretty much an allied lake. Would a French squadron with the Grand Fleet or possibly with the Channel Fleet have been considered? [Although IIRC Dover, the base for the latter could only ready handle small dreadnoughts]. Only other thing might be supporting a landing somewhere in the Adriatic possibly to aid Serbia before it was overrun?
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 16, 2021 13:36:07 GMT
In WWI I wonder what impact that larger French fleet would have had assuming the war developed as OTL? I.e. basically Italy joined the allies which meant that subs aside the Med was pretty much an allied lake. Would a French squadron with the Grand Fleet or possibly with the Channel Fleet have been considered? [Although IIRC Dover, the base for the latter could only ready handle small dreadnoughts]. Only other thing might be supporting a landing somewhere in the Adriatic possibly to aid Serbia before it was overrun?
You thinking of a some heavy french ships joining in the Battle of Jutland. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 16, 2021 13:56:22 GMT
[/div] In WWI I wonder what impact that larger French fleet would have had assuming the war developed as OTL? I.e. basically Italy joined the allies which meant that subs aside the Med was pretty much an allied lake. Would a French squadron with the Grand Fleet or possibly with the Channel Fleet have been considered? [Although IIRC Dover, the base for the latter could only ready handle small dreadnoughts]. Only other thing might be supporting a landing somewhere in the Adriatic possibly to aid Serbia before it was overrun?
[/quote] You thinking of a some heavy french ships joining in the Battle of Jutland. [/quote][/div]
It would depend on the circumstances but a French squadron with the Grand Fleet would mean that the two get to co-operate together and swap ideas. Could end up badly with national pride on both sides or have them finding mutual respect or anywhere in between. If it highlighted some issues with say British shells or other factors it could be a big issue.
If a squadron of the modern ships were available at Jutland then it further increases the numerical edge the allies have, although there were problems with the number of ships anyway, even aside from the lack of signaling problems that Jellicoe had meaning he had so little info. Not sure how they would compare in terms of things like shell reliability. If say they were at the tail of the fleet when the Germans sought to cross it then a lot would depend on their night fighting skills but I suspect it would be more likely a French squadron would report the clash to Jellicoe rather than assuming that 'the admiral would know' as several of the British commanders involved seem to have done. This would make it very likely that Jellicoe would understand it was the main HSF rather than a few sounds of fighting which could have been isolated German ships being encountered. As such if he realised the Germans were heading for the other route home and reversed course. This might have led to a chaotic night battle with heavy losses on both sides or possibly the GF being in a position to meet the HSF again in the morning with the latter having to force their way past them to try and get home. Which is likely to end badly for the Germans even with some of the RN's problems.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 16, 2021 14:00:27 GMT
If a squadron of the modern ships were available at Jutland then it further increases the numerical edge the allies have, although there were problems with the number of ships anyway, even aside from the lack of signaling problems that Jellicoe had meaning he had so little info. Not sure how they would compare in terms of things like shell reliability. If say they were at the tail of the fleet when the Germans sought to cross it then a lot would depend on their night fighting skills but I suspect it would be more likely a French squadron would report the clash to Jellicoe rather than assuming that 'the admiral would know' as several of the British commanders involved seem to have done. This would make it very likely that Jellicoe would understand it was the main HSF rather than a few sounds of fighting which could have been isolated German ships being encountered. As such if he realised the Germans were heading for the other route home and reversed course. This might have led to a chaotic night battle with heavy losses on both sides or possibly the GF being in a position to meet the HSF again in the morning with the latter having to force their way past them to try and get home. Which is likely to end badly for the Germans even with some of the RN's problems.
Only would happens i think if the French have a bigger navy. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 16, 2021 15:57:08 GMT
If a squadron of the modern ships were available at Jutland then it further increases the numerical edge the allies have, although there were problems with the number of ships anyway, even aside from the lack of signaling problems that Jellicoe had meaning he had so little info. Not sure how they would compare in terms of things like shell reliability. If say they were at the tail of the fleet when the Germans sought to cross it then a lot would depend on their night fighting skills but I suspect it would be more likely a French squadron would report the clash to Jellicoe rather than assuming that 'the admiral would know' as several of the British commanders involved seem to have done. This would make it very likely that Jellicoe would understand it was the main HSF rather than a few sounds of fighting which could have been isolated German ships being encountered. As such if he realised the Germans were heading for the other route home and reversed course. This might have led to a chaotic night battle with heavy losses on both sides or possibly the GF being in a position to meet the HSF again in the morning with the latter having to force their way past them to try and get home. Which is likely to end badly for the Germans even with some of the RN's problems.
Only would happens i think if the French have a bigger navy.
If they have powerful new ships like the Normandie & Lyon I suspect, given the bloodbath on the western front there would be demands in the French parliament, as well as from the army for the navy to do something, whether supporting the GF in the N Sea or some operation in the Med.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 16, 2021 15:59:08 GMT
Only would happens i think if the French have a bigger navy. If they have powerful new ships like the Normandie & Lyon I suspect, given the bloodbath on the western front there would be demands in the French parliament, as well as from the army for the navy to do something, whether supporting the GF in the N Sea or some operation in the Med.
Well as the Austria-Hungary navy did not come out to play with the French and Italians in a Battle of Jutland style engagement and the Ottomans navy was not to speak about, the Med will be quit compared to North Sea. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 16, 2021 18:24:54 GMT
If they have powerful new ships like the Normandie & Lyon I suspect, given the bloodbath on the western front there would be demands in the French parliament, as well as from the army for the navy to do something, whether supporting the GF in the N Sea or some operation in the Med.
Well as the Austria-Hungary navy did not come out to play with the French and Italians in a Battle of Jutland style engagement and the Ottomans navy was not to speak about, the Med will be quit compared to North Sea.
Well its was OTL other than subs and the brief Austrian raid on Italy on the heels of the Italian dow. Plus of course the attempt to force the Dardenelles. I suppose that the French might have a bigger involvement in that but would they risk new - or even old - dreadnoughts compared to the pre-dreads of OTL? I think more likely something in the Adriatic or possibly a landing somewhere on the Anatolian coast, although that really needs ground forces to operate with the ships.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 16, 2021 18:27:34 GMT
Well as the Austria-Hungary navy did not come out to play with the French and Italians in a Battle of Jutland style engagement and the Ottomans navy was not to speak about, the Med will be quit compared to North Sea. Well its was OTL other than subs and the brief Austrian raid on Italy on the heels of the Italian dow. Plus of course the attempt to force the Dardenelles. I suppose that the French might have a bigger involvement in that but would they risk new - or even old - dreadnoughts compared to the pre-dreads of OTL? I think more likely something in the Adriatic or possibly a landing somewhere on the Anatolian coast, although that really needs ground forces to operate with the ships.
So a larger navy unlike OTL is not necessary, unless Italia was hostile to the French for some resons and they would unlike OTL side with the Germans. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 17, 2021 10:04:39 GMT
Well its was OTL other than subs and the brief Austrian raid on Italy on the heels of the Italian dow. Plus of course the attempt to force the Dardenelles. I suppose that the French might have a bigger involvement in that but would they risk new - or even old - dreadnoughts compared to the pre-dreads of OTL? I think more likely something in the Adriatic or possibly a landing somewhere on the Anatolian coast, although that really needs ground forces to operate with the ships.
So a larger navy unlike OTL is not necessary, unless Italia was hostile to the French for some resons and they would unlike OTL side with the Germans.
Strictly speaking a large French navy isn't necessary as long as Italy was friendly and Britain an ally. That doesn't mean that France could rely on those conditions or that internal political or economic interests might prompt a French government to build a large navy. That's what happened in Germany after all. 
Its more I was wondering, assuming they had completed those designs before the war began, what they might use them for.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 17, 2021 10:20:35 GMT
So a larger navy unlike OTL is not necessary, unless Italia was hostile to the French for some resons and they would unlike OTL side with the Germans. Strictly speaking a large French navy isn't necessary as long as Italy was friendly and Britain an ally. That doesn't mean that France could rely on those conditions or that internal political or economic interests might prompt a French government to build a large navy. That's what happened in Germany after all. Its more I was wondering, assuming they had completed those designs before the war began, what they might use them for.
Send the to the Pacific maybe early ore before the war as a French Fleet operating from French Indochina maybe. |
|
stevep
Fleet admiral
Posts: 24,832
Likes: 13,222
|
Post by stevep on Oct 17, 2021 10:29:15 GMT
Strictly speaking a large French navy isn't necessary as long as Italy was friendly and Britain an ally. That doesn't mean that France could rely on those conditions or that internal political or economic interests might prompt a French government to build a large navy. That's what happened in Germany after all. Its more I was wondering, assuming they had completed those designs before the war began, what they might use them for.
Send the to the Pacific maybe early ore before the war as a French Fleet operating from French Indochina maybe.
Ah, weren't we talking about the WWI option, with the Normadies and Lyons? There's very little they could do there as Japan and Russia are allies although possibly some of their cruisers could help trying to hunt down Spree's force.
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 17, 2021 10:31:02 GMT
Send the to the Pacific maybe early ore before the war as a French Fleet operating from French Indochina maybe. Ah, weren't we talking about the WWI option, with the Normadies and Lyons? There's very little they could do there as Japan and Russia are allies although possibly some of their cruisers could help trying to hunt down Spree's force.
True, so they will not see much action during the first War but might see some action (if not sunk by the British ore their own crew) some action during the second war. |
|
1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
Posts: 478
Likes: 611
|
Post by 1bigrich on Oct 17, 2021 22:15:03 GMT
|
|
lordroel
Administrator
Posts: 67,964
Likes: 49,369
|
Post by lordroel on Oct 22, 2021 7:55:08 GMT
Nice 1bigrich, some good designs. Did find on the Alsace-class battleship Wikipedia article, this sketches of the Alsace class. The Richelieu is at the top for comparison. The second of the three sketches of the Alsace class corresponds to type n ° 3 indicated by John Jordan and Robert Dumas.  |
|
