SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Oct 12, 2021 11:15:29 GMT
Let's say that ITTL, Satoshi Tajiri's parents manage to solve his "delinquent habits" of skiving off school to play arcade games, with Tajira instead managing to get good grades, progress to university and succeed in his childhood ambition to become a professional entomologist. As such, Game Freak is never created, and neither is the Pokemon franchise (OTL's singular most fiscally successful media franchise of all time, by a huge margin). How much of an impact do you imagine that this might have had? And how different do you envision that this TL would be from our own?
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 12, 2021 13:11:46 GMT
Pretty similar to if no-one created Pacman, or no real important change whatsoever. For several years, I thought them one and the same.
Apart from the momentary public profile of Pokemon Go several years ago, it has never crested the wave of serious adult society in a noticeable manner. I am given to understand that it and other Japanese children's animation is fairly popular on the Internet, but this doesn't really extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations. People will find some other game to plough their money into that will lead to cartoons and what not and the end result is fairly unchanged.
I'd extend this to every trend and media franchise, quite frankly. If Star Wars did not exist, then the only real effect outside of films and youth/nerd culture would be a different perjorative name for SDI.
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SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Oct 12, 2021 15:12:35 GMT
Pretty similar to if no-one created Pacman, or no real important change whatsoever. For several years, I thought them one and the same. Apart from the momentary public profile of Pokemon Go several years ago, it has never crested the wave of serious adult society in a noticeable manner. I am given to understand that it and other Japanese children's animation is fairly popular on the Internet, but this doesn't really extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations. People will find some other game to plough their money into that will lead to cartoons and what not and the end result is fairly unchanged. I'd extend this to every trend and media franchise, quite frankly. If Star Wars did not exist, then the only real effect outside of films and youth/nerd culture would be a different perjorative name for SDI. I'd be heavily inclined to disagree. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchisesBear in mind that we're not just talking about the fourth best-selling video game franchise, but the most successful video game anime TV series adaptation, along with the world's top-selling toy brand, the top-selling trading card game, books, manga comics, music, merchandise, and a theme park. And also remember that Pokémon's been a focal point of criticism from several religious fundamentalist groups around the world, especially Christians and Muslims, over perceived occult and violent themes and the concept of "Pokémon evolution" (as well as from PETA, who've always criticized the concept of Pokémon as supporting cruelty to animals). The "Dennō Senshi Porygon" incident in Dec 1997, in which 685 children experienced seizures and seizure-like symptoms caused by a repetitive flash of light, also became world famous, and was lampooned across the globe; the pop culture depiction and perception of Japanese children's animation IOTL's essentially been molded by popular perception of the Pokemon franchise. Without it, for instance, does Japanese anime still get lambasted as "evil" and "satanic/demonic" (and indeed, as "for children") to the same extent that it did IOTL? Think about it. Just because this doesn't (necessarily- though it's worth mentioning that several nations have in fact deemed the Pokemon animated series and merchandising worthy of being a domestic and international political issue, by imposing bans against it, with the most noteworthy of these being the PR of China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Qatar and Indonesia), "extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations", doesn't make this inconsequential at all. Tell me- what does constitute any "real important change whatsoever", in your opinion? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 12, 2021 16:07:40 GMT
Pretty similar to if no-one created Pacman, or no real important change whatsoever. For several years, I thought them one and the same. Apart from the momentary public profile of Pokemon Go several years ago, it has never crested the wave of serious adult society in a noticeable manner. I am given to understand that it and other Japanese children's animation is fairly popular on the Internet, but this doesn't really extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations. People will find some other game to plough their money into that will lead to cartoons and what not and the end result is fairly unchanged. I'd extend this to every trend and media franchise, quite frankly. If Star Wars did not exist, then the only real effect outside of films and youth/nerd culture would be a different perjorative name for SDI. I'd be heavily inclined to disagree. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchisesBear in mind that we're not just talking about the fourth best-selling video game franchise, but the most successful video game anime TV series adaptation, along with the world's top-selling toy brand, the top-selling trading card game, books, manga comics, music, merchandise, and a theme park. And also remember that Pokémon's been a focal point of criticism from several religious fundamentalist groups around the world, especially Christians and Muslims, over perceived occult and violent themes and the concept of "Pokémon evolution" (as well as from PETA, who've always criticized the concept of Pokémon as supporting cruelty to animals). The "Dennō Senshi Porygon" incident in Dec 1997, in which 685 children experienced seizures and seizure-like symptoms caused by a repetitive flash of light, also became world famous, and was lampooned across the globe; the pop culture depiction and perception of Japanese children's animation IOTL's essentially been molded by popular perception of the Pokemon franchise. Without it, for instance, does Japanese anime still get lambasted as "evil" and "satanic/demonic" (and indeed, as "for children") to the same extent that it did IOTL? Think about it. Just because this doesn't (necessarily- though it's worth mentioning that several nations have in fact deemed the Pokemon animated series and merchandising worthy of being a domestic and international political issue, by imposing bans against it, with the most noteworthy of these being the PR of China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Qatar and Indonesia), "extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations", doesn't make this inconsequential at all. Tell me- what does constitute any "real important change whatsoever", in your opinion? 1.) You are of course free to disagree, but the grounds you list here aren’t really of any substance. Rather, it is just circular repetition and expansion of the original post. 2.) None of that list matters. It simply reflects the increased disposable income available after the 1980s economic good times, the juvenilisation of society and kids generally having more stuff. No video game has ever had a significant impact on the real world or history. No children’s television has ever significantly impacted anything. Ditto toys. Absolutely ditto trading card games, which only come into play from the mid 90s. Ditto manga, theme parks and tatty merchandise. They may be popular and, as a result of the times, make money, but they aren’t of real significance. Perhaps the only manifestation that is of a scintilla of note is that it is an example of generations not growing up and putting away childish things as they enter nominal adulthood. 3.) So did D&D, rock and roll, Harry Potter and numerous other cultural fads. That didn’t make any of them of real significance. 4.) This event was not so famous as to be the stuff of household knowledge, like the moon landing, 9/11, WW2, elections, assassinations, wars, depressions and a lot of other events. It didn’t make the international news back then. 5.) Japanese animation was around before it in the form of Astro Boy, Akira, Mysterious Cities of Gold and half a dozen others, but never really registered as those were regarded as children’s stuff. The US equivalent of He Man or earlier Looney Tunes never did either. Kids can pester parents to spend money, but they don’t vote. 6.) As said previously, quite a few things get branded as Satanic quite regularly, going back well before the modern era. 7.) Plenty of kid’s stuff, such as video games, movies and television, has been subject to bans of sorts - Fallout 3 was banned in Australia until they changed their drug names. None of that was important either. It is inconsequential kids stuff. It did not and does not change lives, economies, mass cultural movements or the trajectory of history. If it never existed, something else would have filled the gap completely seamlessly. Most of the media franchises listed have only really taken off since 2000 in dollar terms. They are products of a modern age which does dwell increasingly on two things: - The products and obsessions of youth - Distractions from a troublesome world without When the history of the 21st century is written in the 2080s, these first few decades won’t be known for Pacman or whatever pop music was fleetingly popular, but for 9/11, the War on Terror, the confrontation between worlds, the Arab Spring, Global Warming, the cultural issues convulsing the USA, the financial crisis and aftermath, social media and the second stage of the Internet age, Brexit and Covid. They’ll talk of Trump, Putin, Xi and Zuckerberg, not Pikachu, Ash and Vegeta. Who now discusses Lisztomania at length? I don’t begrudge them of anyone, but they are fleeting, plastic and largely dross; I can’t let my respect for other people enjoying what they will extend to an untruth - that they are valuable or consequential. Every generation is subject to the tyranny of the present, but that doesn’t make them more or less special in and of themselves. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 12, 2021 16:23:04 GMT
I'd be heavily inclined to disagree. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest-grossing_media_franchisesBear in mind that we're not just talking about the fourth best-selling video game franchise, but the most successful video game anime TV series adaptation, along with the world's top-selling toy brand, the top-selling trading card game, books, manga comics, music, merchandise, and a theme park. And also remember that Pokémon's been a focal point of criticism from several religious fundamentalist groups around the world, especially Christians and Muslims, over perceived occult and violent themes and the concept of "Pokémon evolution" (as well as from PETA, who've always criticized the concept of Pokémon as supporting cruelty to animals). The "Dennō Senshi Porygon" incident in Dec 1997, in which 685 children experienced seizures and seizure-like symptoms caused by a repetitive flash of light, also became world famous, and was lampooned across the globe; the pop culture depiction and perception of Japanese children's animation IOTL's essentially been molded by popular perception of the Pokemon franchise. Without it, for instance, does Japanese anime still get lambasted as "evil" and "satanic/demonic" (and indeed, as "for children") to the same extent that it did IOTL? Think about it. Just because this doesn't (necessarily- though it's worth mentioning that several nations have in fact deemed the Pokemon animated series and merchandising worthy of being a domestic and international political issue, by imposing bans against it, with the most noteworthy of these being the PR of China, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt, Turkey, Qatar and Indonesia), "extend into the affairs of nations, domestic and international politics, war and peace or the rise and fall of nations", doesn't make this inconsequential at all. Tell me- what does constitute any "real important change whatsoever", in your opinion? 1.) You are of course free to disagree, but the grounds you list here aren’t really of any substance. Rather, it is just circular repetition and expansion of the original post. 2.) None of that list matters. It simply reflects the increased disposable income available after the 1980s economic good times, the juvenilisation of society and kids generally having more stuff. No video game has ever had a significant impact on the real world or history. No children’s television has ever significantly impacted anything. Ditto toys. Absolutely ditto trading card games, which only come into play from the mid 90s. Ditto manga, theme parks and tatty merchandise. They may be popular and, as a result of the times, make money, but they aren’t of real significance. Perhaps the only manifestation that is of a scintilla of note is that it is an example of generations not growing up and putting away childish things as they enter nominal adulthood. 3.) So did D&D, rock and roll, Harry Potter and numerous other cultural fads. That didn’t make any of them of real significance. 4.) This event was not so famous as to be the stuff of household knowledge, like the moon landing, 9/11, WW2, elections, assassinations, wars, depressions and a lot of other events. It didn’t make the international news back then. 5.) Japanese animation was around before it in the form of Astro Boy, Akira, Mysterious Cities of Gold and half a dozen others, but never really registered as those were regarded as children’s stuff. The US equivalent of He Man or earlier Looney Tunes never did either. Kids can pester parents to spend money, but they don’t vote. 6.) As said previously, quite a few things get branded as Satanic quite regularly, going back well before the modern era. 7.) Plenty of kid’s stuff, such as video games, movies and television, has been subject to bans of sorts - Fallout 3 was banned in Australia until they changed their drug names. None of that was important either. It is inconsequential kids stuff. It did not and does not change lives, economies, mass cultural movements or the trajectory of history. If it never existed, something else would have filled the gap completely seamlessly. Most of the media franchises listed have only really taken off since 2000 in dollar terms. They are products of a modern age which does dwell increasingly on two things: - The products and obsessions of youth - Distractions from a troublesome world without When the history of the 21st century is written in the 2080s, these first few decades won’t be known for Pacman or whatever pop music was fleetingly popular, but for 9/11, the War on Terror, the confrontation between worlds, the Arab Spring, Global Warming, the cultural issues convulsing the USA, the financial crisis and aftermath, social media and the second stage of the Internet age, Brexit and Covid. They’ll talk of Trump, Putin, Xi and Zuckerberg, not Pikachu, Ash and Vegeta. Who now discusses Lisztomania at length? I don’t begrudge them of anyone, but they are fleeting, plastic and largely dross; I can’t let my respect for other people enjoying what they will extend to an untruth - that they are valuable or consequential. Every generation is subject to the tyranny of the present, but that doesn’t make them more or less special in and of themselves. Would you say such franchises would be the preoccupation of hobbyists and media historians by that point, then? I agree they have little impact on mass-movements that impact people's lives or the "direction" society takes in the long-term way economics, warfare, or technological advances do. I'd say that the various mediums contemporary media is presented in are significant, though, which you rightly noted when mentioning social media and the Internet Age.
But, as a short-term thought experiment that imagines what a more niche aspect of life looks like (i.e. pop culture and the entertainment market), I think it's something to discuss. Probably more for the current generation's benefit than anything of significant worth to future generations, admittedly, who'll view it as more or less the same way most people today might think of AH discussions about a world where The Wizard of Oz was never released. Which is to say, being a passing thought with ripple effects contained to its own specific industry, but nothing much to do with substantive things--namely the Great Depression and a Second World War looming on the horizon--that really defined the 1930s and early '40s.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 12, 2021 16:32:53 GMT
With regard to your second paragraph/point, I’d take a step back.
We could definitely explore what changes happen if
Rock and Roll/Rap/Jazz
Video Games
Anime
Internet Forums and (modern) Message Boards
Other Large Category
are not around, but it gets a bit too focused when we just look at a single band/franchise/movie series is taken out.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 12, 2021 16:42:30 GMT
With regard to your second paragraph/point, I’d take a step back. We could definitely explore what changes happen if Rock and Roll/Rap/Jazz Video Games Anime Internet Forums and (modern) Message Boards Other Large Category are not around, but it gets a bit too focused when we just look at a single band/franchise/movie series is taken out. That's what I meant, though I suppose you worded it more "cleanly" than I did. Yes, butterflying certain types of media would have significant effects, which I agreed with you on when mentioning your points on social media and the internet explosion being trademark takeoffs of the early twenty-first century. Granted, I think there are some cases where name-dropping specific franchises as examples of what changes in media helped facilitate (i.e. movie-making technology making Star Wars possible) would be fine.
Otherwise, while I certainly like Star Wars and think it had impacts impossible to miss within its own industry and "domain" of what people did for entertainment back in the day, I'd spit out my drink if someone tried to insist it was anywhere near as important as the 1980 election or Reaganite swing that followed, for example.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Nov 16, 2021 11:50:12 GMT
Digimon would probably takes its place. Or at least a similar game using monsters would be TTL's equivalent of Pokemon.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Nov 17, 2021 2:39:30 GMT
Yugioh might become more prominent this time around. They were airing Season 0 around this time period too.
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