Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 11, 2021 23:59:43 GMT
Despite his march across the continent ultimately ending in defeat, Napoleon Bonaparte left behind a legacy as one of Modernity's great conquerors and statesmen, with the wars that became his namesake having profound consequences of their own. Increasingly centralized states and the spirit of unity they engendered fueled the rise of modern nationalism, which even today, remains a source of constant back-and-forth. Small armies became monstrous militaries that demanded universal dedication to all-encompassing war efforts against not just rival monarchs, but rival peoples, as well. With the defeat of France and decline of its Spanish and Portuguese competitors, the British Empire became global hegemon and enforced a century-long period of Pax Britannica. Little did people know, however, that—as momentous as all the events and trends taking shape around them were—they were only living through a prelude to an even greater orgy of bloodshed and radicalism to come in the century to follow.
Skippy, intrigued by the cross-century trends he sees and curious as to what they’d say if they did know what was to come, has other plans. Hand-waving the importance of choosing an exact date—just to see what people at various points throughout the Napoleonic Wars think and creating as many parallel timelines as are needed for that—Skippy sends a hodgepodge uptimer documents, recordings, and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power them (i.e. hand-cranked chargers for portable TV sets) that tells the people of Europe all they need to know about the World Wars. Moreover, since it’s also helpful to learn what built up to them in the hundred years between the Congress of Vienna and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Skippy will also send back material that addresses these issues and the developments that preceded and/or underpinned them (such as the Second Industrial Revolution and unification of Germany, among others).
Ignoring how all the crazy technology sent back would make distinct impressions on its own, how would Napoleonic Europe react to the World Wars that’d have followed, long after the current generation has died out and a new one has taken the reins? Personally, I suppose that—in addition to their unprecedented scale—I doubt they'd take kindly to how they precipitated the decline and fall of the European empires. Nor how Germany, Japan, and, to an extent, Stalinist Russia were all more menacing than Napoleon ever was. Whereas they might see Soviet communism as a nasty parallel to Revolutionary France (with Joe Stalin himself staring as Robespierre Reincarnated!), I doubt they’d have a real point of comparison with Nazi Germany, with Hitler’s Final Solution requiring prejudice and mass-slaughter on a scale never planned or so meticulously premeditated before—a scale that, if ever truly realized, would prove the Third Reich far worse than even the most blood-soaked leftist agitators of either century ever were. Not to mention how the recently independent New England colonies across the Atlantic needed only a century and few decades to become global superpower, helping turn the tide of World War Two through sheer industrial might before rebuilding the post-war world in its own image. Ditto with the Manhattan Project and atomic bombings ushering in the Nuclear Age and helping lay the groundwork for the Cold War to follow.
Those are my own thoughts on the scenario, anyway. There will certainly be those with little interest in anything but the big picture and blatantly obvious, “shock and awe” aspects of two truly global conflicts and all the destruction they unleashed, but for the curious and historically inclined who’d dig much deeper, there’s much more to discuss. It’d undoubtedly inform post-war political decisions and subsequent approaches to warfare, since leaders of all stripes would want to avert the violent excesses of the twentieth century and jockey for every possible edge over potential competitors. Especially those damnable Yankees across the Atlantic, suborning Europe to their whims and commanding wealth and power the British Empire could only dream of.
Thank you in advance,
Zyobot
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 12, 2021 3:18:44 GMT
Despite his march across the continent ultimately ending in defeat, Napoleon Bonaparte left behind a legacy as one of Modernity's great conquerors and statesmen, with the wars that became his namesake having profound consequences of their own. Increasingly centralized states and the spirit of unity they engendered fueled the rise of modern nationalism, which even today, remains a source of constant back-and-forth. Small armies became monstrous militaries that demanded universal dedication to all-encompassing war efforts against not just rival monarchs, but rival peoples, as well. With the defeat of France and decline of its Spanish and Portuguese competitors, the British Empire became global hegemon and enforced a century-long period of Pax Britannica. Little did people know, however, that—as momentous as all the events and trends taking shape around them were—they were only living through a prelude to an even greater orgy of bloodshed and radicalism to come in the century to follow. Skippy, intrigued by the cross-century trends he sees and curious as to what they’d say if they did know what was to come, has other plans. Hand-waving the importance of choosing an exact date—just to see what people at various points throughout the Napoleonic Wars think and creating as many parallel timelines as are needed for that—Skippy sends a hodgepodge uptimer documents, recordings, and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power them (i.e. hand-cranked chargers for portable TV sets) that tells the people of Europe all they need to know about the World Wars. Moreover, since it’s also helpful to learn what built up to them in the hundred years between the Congress of Vienna and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Skippy will also send back material that addresses these issues and the developments that preceded and/or underpinned them (such as the Second Industrial Revolution and unification of Germany, among others). Ignoring how all the crazy technology sent back would make distinct impressions on its own, how would Napoleonic Europe react to the World Wars that’d have followed, long after the current generation has died out and a new one has taken the reins? Personally, I suppose that—in addition to their unprecedented scale—I doubt they'd take kindly to how they precipitated the decline and fall of the European empires. Nor how Germany, Japan, and, to an extent, Stalinist Russia were all more menacing than Napoleon ever was. Whereas they might see Soviet communism as a nasty parallel to Revolutionary France (with Joe Stalin himself staring as Robespierre Reincarnated!), I doubt they’d have a real point of comparison with Nazi Germany, with Hitler’s Final Solution requiring prejudice and mass-slaughter on a scale never planned or so meticulously premeditated before—a scale that, if ever truly realized, would prove the Third Reich far worse than even the most blood-soaked leftist agitators of either century ever were. Not to mention how the recently independent New England colonies across the Atlantic needed only a century and few decades to become global superpower, helping turn the tide of World War Two through sheer industrial might before rebuilding the post-war world in its own image. Ditto with the Manhattan Project and atomic bombings ushering in the Nuclear Age and helping lay the groundwork for the Cold War to follow. Those are my own thoughts on the scenario, anyway. There will certainly be those with little interest in anything but the big picture and blatantly obvious, “shock and awe” aspects of two truly global conflicts and all the destruction they unleashed, but for the curious and historically inclined who’d dig much deeper, there’s much more to discuss. It’d undoubtedly inform post-war political decisions and subsequent approaches to warfare, since leaders of all stripes would want to avert the violent excesses of the twentieth century and jockey for every possible edge over potential competitors. Especially those damnable Yankees across the Atlantic, suborning Europe to their whims and commanding wealth and power the British Empire could only dream of. Thank you in advance, Zyobot Well Napoleon did in 1812 had control of much of what Germany had on Late 1940.  |
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Posts: 17,120
Likes: 7,187
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 12, 2021 3:29:07 GMT
Despite his march across the continent ultimately ending in defeat, Napoleon Bonaparte left behind a legacy as one of Modernity's great conquerors and statesmen, with the wars that became his namesake having profound consequences of their own. Increasingly centralized states and the spirit of unity they engendered fueled the rise of modern nationalism, which even today, remains a source of constant back-and-forth. Small armies became monstrous militaries that demanded universal dedication to all-encompassing war efforts against not just rival monarchs, but rival peoples, as well. With the defeat of France and decline of its Spanish and Portuguese competitors, the British Empire became global hegemon and enforced a century-long period of Pax Britannica. Little did people know, however, that—as momentous as all the events and trends taking shape around them were—they were only living through a prelude to an even greater orgy of bloodshed and radicalism to come in the century to follow. Skippy, intrigued by the cross-century trends he sees and curious as to what they’d say if they did know what was to come, has other plans. Hand-waving the importance of choosing an exact date—just to see what people at various points throughout the Napoleonic Wars think and creating as many parallel timelines as are needed for that—Skippy sends a hodgepodge uptimer documents, recordings, and the miniaturized infrastructure needed to power them (i.e. hand-cranked chargers for portable TV sets) that tells the people of Europe all they need to know about the World Wars. Moreover, since it’s also helpful to learn what built up to them in the hundred years between the Congress of Vienna and the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, Skippy will also send back material that addresses these issues and the developments that preceded and/or underpinned them (such as the Second Industrial Revolution and unification of Germany, among others). Ignoring how all the crazy technology sent back would make distinct impressions on its own, how would Napoleonic Europe react to the World Wars that’d have followed, long after the current generation has died out and a new one has taken the reins? Personally, I suppose that—in addition to their unprecedented scale—I doubt they'd take kindly to how they precipitated the decline and fall of the European empires. Nor how Germany, Japan, and, to an extent, Stalinist Russia were all more menacing than Napoleon ever was. Whereas they might see Soviet communism as a nasty parallel to Revolutionary France (with Joe Stalin himself staring as Robespierre Reincarnated!), I doubt they’d have a real point of comparison with Nazi Germany, with Hitler’s Final Solution requiring prejudice and mass-slaughter on a scale never planned or so meticulously premeditated before—a scale that, if ever truly realized, would prove the Third Reich far worse than even the most blood-soaked leftist agitators of either century ever were. Not to mention how the recently independent New England colonies across the Atlantic needed only a century and few decades to become global superpower, helping turn the tide of World War Two through sheer industrial might before rebuilding the post-war world in its own image. Ditto with the Manhattan Project and atomic bombings ushering in the Nuclear Age and helping lay the groundwork for the Cold War to follow. Those are my own thoughts on the scenario, anyway. There will certainly be those with little interest in anything but the big picture and blatantly obvious, “shock and awe” aspects of two truly global conflicts and all the destruction they unleashed, but for the curious and historically inclined who’d dig much deeper, there’s much more to discuss. It’d undoubtedly inform post-war political decisions and subsequent approaches to warfare, since leaders of all stripes would want to avert the violent excesses of the twentieth century and jockey for every possible edge over potential competitors. Especially those damnable Yankees across the Atlantic, suborning Europe to their whims and commanding wealth and power the British Empire could only dream of. Thank you in advance, Zyobot Well Napoleon did in 1812 had control of much of what Germany had on Late 1940. Interesting, thanks. Definitely a disparity between what 1812 France and 1940 Germany controlled. I‘ve a feeling the Reich caught up in 1941 or ‘42, given how Operation Barbarossa was all the rage, by then. On the other hand, France—once the terror of Europe and nemesis of various Coalitions for twelve long years—got invaded by a revanchist Germany a century and a half later. If that’s not enough, it also had to be liberated by the other W/Allies, ultimately playing second fiddle to America, Great Britain, and Soviet Russia both during and after World War II. Fate’s a capricious mistress, it seems (especially with the indignant “cheese-eating surrender monkeys” meme, which will certainly sour Nappy’s mood).  |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 12, 2021 9:18:24 GMT
It would depend on the timing and circumstances but assuming its before 1812, or at least the invasion of Russia being in full swing there are going to be big impacts. Napoleon, assuming he accepts this new information is likely to change course. Either no invasion of Russia or trying to do things differently. Probably going to find an excuse to cripple Prussia totally given what it became OTL.
Assuming Britain gets similar information and depending on what happens with Napoleon and again its before ~1813 I wonder how it would affect relations with the US. Seeking to avoid conflict or possibly a determination to avoid the US becoming such a monster.
Not sure how other powers might react to the news. Russia might feel more confident in standing up to Napoleon - assuming its after ~1809 say. Austria is in an awkward position and possibly even more Prussia. Spain, if its before Napoleon's coup against the Bourbon monarchy, could descend into even more bitter infighting between the king and his son or try and act to prevent Napoleonic troops entering Spain. Although if he really understands what reports he gets of the Spanish 'ulcer' then it could well be he decides he would rather have an incompetent monarchy that the nightmare he caused OTL.
As well as information of future history - both short term and up until ~2021 - there's going to be a lot of other information about technological development and raw materials etc, albeit that even the most developed of the current states will only get the barest ideas of how to grope towards some of those inventions, for instance steam power and iron ships, let alone air power, radios etc. At least some of those ideas they will attempt to include in the ongoing wars ASAP but probably with limited success.
Ditto in terms of how the assorted leaderships and populations react to new of social changes. The spread of democracy will be welcomed by many and hated/feared by other. Similarly with changes in lifestyles, ending of slavery and many other issues. Double this again with the very nasty dictatorships that occur in the last century and the horrors they generate.
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 12, 2021 10:31:29 GMT
Like Steve, I think that the early 19th century folk and leaders will struggle to understand the full meaning, impact and scope of industry.
Having said that, there are some quite intelligent people and strategists who can rationalise the concept of "If we do this, these things will follow and eventually this situation."
The autocratic nations of the Holy Alliance aren't going to meekly accept their fate.
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 12, 2021 14:21:15 GMT
Thanks for your answers so far, everyone.
Something else I’m wondering about is whether the other mainline European powers will want to prevent German unification? Not only was Hitler’s agenda more monstrous than Napoleon’s ever was, but from a geostrategic standpoint, a united Germany provided serious competition to everyone else at the start of the twentieth century. Even after two world wars and its empire falling apart, Germany has still bounced back as the continent’s industrial powerhouse and lies at the center of EU politics (both figuratively and literally). When Napoleon had grandiose dreams of a united Europe, I doubt this is quite what he was envisioning.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 13, 2021 17:27:51 GMT
Thanks for your answers so far, everyone. Something else I’m wondering about is whether the other mainline European powers will want to prevent German unification? Not only was Hitler’s agenda more monstrous than Napoleon’s ever was, but from a geostrategic standpoint, a united Germany provided serious competition to everyone else at the start of the twentieth century. Even after two world wars and its empire falling apart, Germany has still bounced back as the continent’s industrial powerhouse and lies at the center of EU politics (both figuratively and literally). When Napoleon had grandiose dreams of a united Europe, I doubt this is quite what he was envisioning.
I think most people - outside a fair number of Germans obviously - would want to avoid a united Germany, until anyway someone like Russia possibly becomes a bigger threat and the rest of Europe decides that its a greater threat. I say most because some German rulers and population might be happy as independent states and also some rulers and possibly even people are happy with the idea of a multi-national empire such as the Hapsburg one.
There would also other groups that would seek to avoid the rise of Russia, when new reaches that far east the fall of the Ottoman empire, the rise of the US etc. Napoleon would want to keep France the dominant power in at least western Europe. Britain would seek to maintain its own power but as with other nations there are also likely to be internal conflicts with different groups in the country seeking to maintain the status quo or change it in different directions.
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Zyobot
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Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
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Post by Zyobot on Oct 21, 2021 15:34:57 GMT
I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it, so since that's the case: how would downtimers react to nuclear weapons? Over-awed and terrified at how the next century makes sealing God's Wrath into a tin can possible, and even ubiquitous, is obvious. Especially with both those "damned Yankees" and "backwards Russkies" having amassed the largest nuclear stockpiles in the world (with the former being the first to build and use them, period).
Beyond that, what else? Head starts are great and all, but they're dreaming if they think any one of them will be able to pull off the Manhattan Project some hundred years early, considering all the cumulative scientific knowledge and industrial base they'll need to develop first (though they'll keep it at the backs of their minds for the next three or four generations, I imagine). Which is also without considering whether anti-nuclear movements will get off the ground early, since lots of people would be both appalled and scared to death at the idea of MAD emerging ITTL, too.
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