oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 15:29:36 GMT
As always Steve, a well thought out response.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 13, 2021 15:30:55 GMT
As always Steve, a well thought out response. Senior Chief, i am glad to have Stevep as a member of the forum, he knows his stuff, like you and everybody else here. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 19:57:12 GMT
Here is another way Germany might have won WW II.
I give Zvallid points for originality. I particularly find intriguing how the USA made it's decision to join the TRIDENT  I really want to read your opinions on the AT.
WW2 - What if USA joined Axis instead of the Allies
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 14, 2021 2:47:16 GMT
Here is another way Germany might have won WW II.
I give Zvallid points for originality. I particularly find intriguing how the USA made it's decision to join the TRIDENT I really want to read your opinions on the AT.
WW2 - What if USA joined Axis instead of the Allies Well if we read the book and the mini series the The Plot Against America you can see that having Charles Lindbergh as president it almost could have happen. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 14, 2021 14:31:43 GMT
Here is another way Germany might have won WW II.
I give Zvallid points for originality. I particularly find intriguing how the USA made it's decision to join the TRIDENT I really want to read your opinions on the AT.
WW2 - What if USA joined Axis instead of the Allies Well if we read the book and the mini series the The Plot Against America you can see that having Charles Lindbergh as president it almost could have happen.
Thanks old buddy. I will make it a point to do as you suggest. Quite frankly, I thought this crazy Russian had been on a month long Vodka binge when he put this video together.
Now You tell me it was possible?
I knew Lindbergh had some sympathy for the Nazi's but no idea he had enough followers to make him a viable POTUS candidate. Wow!
Here is what the author had to say about the possibility of his plot having been reality.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 14, 2021 14:35:47 GMT
Well if we read the book and the mini series the The Plot Against America you can see that having Charles Lindbergh as president it almost could have happen.
Thanks old buddy. I will make it a point to do as you suggest. Quite frankly, I thought this crazy Russian had been on a month long Vodka binge when he put this video together.
Now You tell me it was possible?
I knew Lindbergh had some sympathy for the Nazi's but no idea he had enough followers to make him a viable POTUS candidate. Wow!
Well he could if he manged to speak what people wanted to hear, no involvement in the war in Europe, anti-Semitic speech and if he runs try to get the popular support from the South and the Midwest. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 14, 2021 19:53:58 GMT
Here is another way Germany might have won WW II.
I give Zvallid points for originality. I particularly find intriguing how the USA made it's decision to join the TRIDENT I really want to read your opinions on the AT.
WW2 - What if USA joined Axis instead of the Allies
WTF!! I think that's the best question to ask. Must admit I only watched the 1st 10 minutes or so before I gave up. There are a number of factual errors before the primary diversion from OTL. Since as the dates at which Germany attacks Denmark/Norway [April not March] and the low countries and France [May not June] and that L-L wasn't opened for the USSR until some time after the German attack. Also it neglects to mention that the coup in Yugoslavia was due to the existing regimes too pro-Axis stance while it fails to mention at all why there was war in the region, the Italian attack on Greece.
Japan was upset by the Nazi-Soviet pact and as a result signed its own non-Aggression pact with the Soviets but continued to be deeply hostile to Stalin's regime and by this time Germany had clearly chosen Japan over China as their primary 'friend' in the Far East. Its true that Japan and Germany [and also Italy] tended not to inform each other of plans for dramatic military actions but that was partly security and partly the nature of each regime.
If Japan had made that move to occupy Vichy France and for some odd reason Germany and Italy had done a dow on Japan then: a) Not sure if Britain would have stepped into southern FIC but if they did then it would probably be seen as a protective move by the French units and population there. Plus it would mean that Britain would require a garrison being maintained in the area and control of this region would have made the OTL invasion of Malaya far more difficult if not impossible.
b) Britain might, under pressure have supplied some oil to Japan, although the Soviets are probably a more likely source - albeit that would put some strain on the Trans-Siberian logistics. However I'm not at all convinced that Britain would have a formal alliance of any kind with Japan because it would have upset the US too much. More likely they would be co-belligerents against the Axis. c) Not sure that Britain would strip the east of what relatively little defences it had, especially since there would be the question of logistic support for then in the western desert. Similarly numbers of elderly cruisers - although a few like Dorsetshire and Cornwall were pretty modern, or an elderly, slow and small CV [Hermes] would have made no significant difference on the battle of the Atlantic and its likely they would have stayed in the east. I would also be interested in what base Japan is using to operate cruisers and destroyers off western Australia as I doubt it would be a British or Dutch one.
d) If the Japanese had still attacked the US then both Churchill and Stalin would have hung them out to dry as they needed the US far more than Japan. Britain might take a bit of time before any dow and Russia wouldn't do so at all until at least 42/43 but they would fairly immediately cut any aid/trade contact - possibly simply giving some time for reinforcements to secure their eastern interests.
From that point on its difficult to see anything that develops into a German-US alliance although with Japan being at war with the US and the Axis - albeit a token one in the latter case - its going to be a bit odd.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 14, 2021 20:14:36 GMT
Well if we read the book and the mini series the The Plot Against America you can see that having Charles Lindbergh as president it almost could have happen.
Thanks old buddy. I will make it a point to do as you suggest. Quite frankly, I thought this crazy Russian had been on a month long Vodka binge when he put this video together.
Now You tell me it was possible?
I knew Lindbergh had some sympathy for the Nazi's but no idea he had enough followers to make him a viable POTUS candidate. Wow!
Here is what the author had to say about the possibility of his plot having been reality.
I would say that if Lindbergh had got elected, and not sure how big an IF that would have been, then it could well have lead to an Axis victory in WWII. Without L-L then the massive US support later on Britain would at most - and that's probably unlikely - have been able to hold the ring, clear N Africa and possibly launch an invasion of southern Italy. The Soviets its difficult to say how things would have gone but could have been anything from a Soviet loss in probably 43-44, a stalemate of exhaustion or an eventual Soviet victory but far more bloodied than OTL.
With an isolationist US what would be his stance on Japan? Reading the wiki article on en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lindbergh he seems to have deep racist tendencies and be very hostile to both Russian communism and even more so east Asians so he might have supported China as a counter to Japan or avoided favouring either side. In either case what would Japan do? |
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 20, 2021 13:31:08 GMT
If the US doesn't institute an embargo against Japan, they continue their operations in China. For how long is a good question, but a good case can be made that if there's no embargo, the proximal cause for war in the pacific disappears. Japan continues to purchase oil from the US and the Dutch East Indies, and scrap metal from the US.
Depending on when you posit a Lindberg presidency, you would still have the two ocean navy act happen, along with the concurrent expansion of the Navy, the Army and the Army Air Corps.
I would assume that at some point either the Japanese invasion of China and the various atrocities that regularly occurred would offend enough people that either the Japanese would stop/hide them better, or stop claiming more chunks of china. If they choose the latter option, then they spend between 20 and 50 years pacifying/integrating the mainland provinces into the Japanese Empire.... I mean, the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere.
Depending on how the war in Europe works out, you could see the Japanese either invading russian to grab the "northern resource area" or making nice with whichever power ends up in charge in Europe.
I strongly suspect that the US ends up going to war with Nazi Germany if/when England looks like its about to go under. I don't know about Lend Lease. I suspect that some kind of financial skulldugery would occur to allow the English to continue buying US arms and supplies. I doubt it would be extended to Russia, because enough was known about how bad the communists were and little enough was known about exactly how bad the Nazis were at the time of Barbarossa.
The problem, of course, is that Lindberg was not really looked at countrywide as a national leader. He was well known, yes, from both his transatlantic flight and for the kidnapping and subsequent death of his child. However, some major butterflies would have to be in force to change his status from "Kinda-sorta a celebrity" to "President of the US".
Belushi TD
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 20, 2021 13:36:51 GMT
However, some major butterflies would have to be in force to change his status from "Kinda-sorta a celebrity" to "President of the US". Belushi TD What about 2016, Trump said the things the voters wanted to hear, Lindberg could do the same. |
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 20, 2021 13:46:01 GMT
Ehhhh.... Yes and no.
Yes, Trump said lots of things that a lot of people wanted to hear.
No, he was not the same kind of "Sorta-kinda" celebrity. Trump was a bona-fide celebrity, well known around the country, with his own fairly long running TV show, as well as both a not successful and a successful businessman.
Lindbergh said a lot of things that a lot of people back then wanted to hear (Isolationist stance and so forth), but he was not the same level of a celebrity that Trump was in 2016.
Belushi TD
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 20, 2021 18:45:58 GMT
If the US doesn't institute an embargo against Japan, they continue their operations in China. For how long is a good question, but a good case can be made that if there's no embargo, the proximal cause for war in the pacific disappears. Japan continues to purchase oil from the US and the Dutch East Indies, and scrap metal from the US. Depending on when you posit a Lindberg presidency, you would still have the two ocean navy act happen, along with the concurrent expansion of the Navy, the Army and the Army Air Corps. I would assume that at some point either the Japanese invasion of China and the various atrocities that regularly occurred would offend enough people that either the Japanese would stop/hide them better, or stop claiming more chunks of china. If they choose the latter option, then they spend between 20 and 50 years pacifying/integrating the mainland provinces into the Japanese Empire.... I mean, the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity Sphere. Depending on how the war in Europe works out, you could see the Japanese either invading russian to grab the "northern resource area" or making nice with whichever power ends up in charge in Europe. I strongly suspect that the US ends up going to war with Nazi Germany if/when England looks like its about to go under. I don't know about Lend Lease. I suspect that some kind of financial skulldugery would occur to allow the English to continue buying US arms and supplies. I doubt it would be extended to Russia, because enough was known about how bad the communists were and little enough was known about exactly how bad the Nazis were at the time of Barbarossa. The problem, of course, is that Lindberg was not really looked at countrywide as a national leader. He was well known, yes, from both his transatlantic flight and for the kidnapping and subsequent death of his child. However, some major butterflies would have to be in force to change his status from "Kinda-sorta a celebrity" to "President of the US". Belushi TD
The issue here might be how long can Japan continue to pay for such imports. Plus if they still occupy southern FIC and get no reaction from the US and UK then the militants are likely to see it as a green flag to go further. At some point even if they can afford to pay how long before they decide its easier to simply take if Britain and the Free Dutch look too weak and the US seems to be suggesting it won't fight to protect them.
In terms of China I think Japan would have to withdraw completely - possibly holding Manchuria - to end the conflict as the Chinese were in no mood to allow such an occupation and while they might hide it a bit better the Japanese are unlikely to end the brutal occupation policies which really makes any settlement with China pretty much impossible.
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Post by Max Sinister on Jun 9, 2022 12:29:24 GMT
That's a thing I've often asked myself back in my AH.com days. For historical reasons, here's the thread.The biggest question bothering me is: Would US politics move to the right (according to "They won the war, so they must've done something right"), or rather the opposite ("Now we must work twice as hard to stop fascism!")? Or would both of these tendencies cancel each other? As it has been suggested: Maybe Joe McCarthy would hunt Nazis instead of Commies? Whatever helps his career... |
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I really want to read your opinions on the AT. 