gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Oct 12, 2021 16:53:05 GMT
I remember watching Fatherland on October 9, 2013 after first semester of freshmen year ended. It gave me the first look of how a Nazi Cold War would look like. The movie is in my eyes was worse than the book i felt was good. Funny enough, the reason I watched that movie that day 8 years ago was because my paintball plans with friends didn't push through. I was upset and needed to get my mind off things. Regardless, I was able to compare the book than the movie. The movie may not be perfect but I did nonetheless enjoy it. Man, those were good times. Hard to believe it was 8 years ago.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 12, 2021 16:56:34 GMT
The movie is in my eyes was worse than the book i felt was good. Funny enough, the reason I watched that movie that day 8 years ago was because my paintball plans with friends didn't push through. I was upset and needed to get my mind off things. Regardless, I was able to compare the book than the movie. The movie may not be perfect but I did nonetheless enjoy it. Man, those were good times. Hard to believe it was 8 years ago. Well the movie has its own thread on the forum, plus it can be watch there as well: Fatherland (movie)
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gillan1220
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I've been depressed recently. Slow replies coming in the next few days.
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Post by gillan1220 on Oct 12, 2021 17:35:02 GMT
Funny enough, the reason I watched that movie that day 8 years ago was because my paintball plans with friends didn't push through. I was upset and needed to get my mind off things. Regardless, I was able to compare the book than the movie. The movie may not be perfect but I did nonetheless enjoy it. Man, those were good times. Hard to believe it was 8 years ago. Well the movie has its own thread on the forum, plus it can be watch there as well: Fatherland (movie)Another similar story in the other forum: The Anglo/American - Nazi War
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 12, 2021 17:39:06 GMT
Think it only is allowed to exist as it is created by the right hand of Ian on AH.com.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 0:03:30 GMT
The best thing Hitler could have done to buy Germany some time was not to declare war against the United States. Lordroel my friend, how about this for an AT. Hitler does not go to war with anyone but the Soviets. Instead of invading Poland he manages to to form an alliance with Poland. Given Poland's distrust of the soviets this might just be possible.
Now we have all of the might of the Nazi war machine concentrated on the reds. No BS in Greece. No starting barbarosa too late in the year. No sapping the strength of the Luftwaffe in the west. Just plain Blitzkrieg against the Red army. A Red army that is still suffering from Joe's purges.
One more difference is the Nazi's do not pillage until the war is won. You get the Ukrain, Chechnians, Georgians and many other enslaved Soviet republics as allies. Let them loose on the communists and they will make the Gestapo look like "Wilderness Girls".
In this ATL Hitler takes out the soviets, securing his oil needs and other natural resources with newly "Freed" states to draw manpower from.
THEN he rolls West and defeats France, slaughters the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk and Destroys the RAF. In effect he reverses the order of his conquests.
1941 Nazi Germany vs Soviets ALONE: Who would have won?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 13, 2021 3:13:50 GMT
The best thing Hitler could have done to buy Germany some time was not to declare war against the United States. Lordroel my friend, how about this for an AT. Hitler does not go to war with anyone but the Soviets. Instead of invading Poland he manages to to form an alliance with Poland. Given Poland's distrust of the soviets this might just be possible.
In the end Hitler will betray Poland and will use the German troops he has in the country to take over, just like what they did in Italy, and this time the British not French will come to Poland aid.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 13:45:00 GMT
Lordroel my friend, how about this for an AT. Hitler does not go to war with anyone but the Soviets. Instead of invading Poland he manages to to form an alliance with Poland. Given Poland's distrust of the soviets this might just be possible.
In the end Hitler will betray Poland and will use the German troops he has in the country to take over, just like what they did in Italy, and this time the British not French will come to Poland aid. Agree with betrayal of Poland and everyone else. After all he is hitler
So we have a replay of the Napoleonic wars? A sea power confronts a massive continental land power. Without the Red Army to attrite the Wehrmacht I don't see the Brit empire having any chance of successfully invading Europe, let alone survive the counter attack by the Wehrmacht and their vassals.
I have a hard time seeing the US coming to the aid of the Soviets in any meaningful way. The UK, France and the rest of Europe possibly but not the soviets.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Oct 13, 2021 13:49:06 GMT
In the end Hitler will betray Poland and will use the German troops he has in the country to take over, just like what they did in Italy, and this time the British not French will come to Poland aid. Agree with betrayal of Poland and everyone else. After all he is hitler
So we have a replay of the Napoleonic wars? A sea power confronts a massive continental land power. Without the Red Army to attrite the Wehrmacht I don't see the Brit empire having any chance of successfully invading Europe, let alone survive the counter attack by the Wehrmacht and their vassals.
I have a hard time seeing the US coming to the aid of the Soviets in any meaningful way. The UK, France and the rest of Europe possibly but not the soviets.
In this case, the Anglo-Franco-American naval fleet would be more massive than the Reich's fleet. The U.S. would have to use the Arctic and Far East route to supply the Soviets with Lend Lease aid.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 13, 2021 13:50:53 GMT
In the end Hitler will betray Poland and will use the German troops he has in the country to take over, just like what they did in Italy, and this time the British not French will come to Poland aid. Agree with betrayal of Poland and everyone else. After all he is hitler
So we have a replay of the Napoleonic wars? A sea power confronts a massive continental land power. Without the Red Army to attrite the Wehrmacht I don't see the Brit empire having any chance of successfully invading Europe, let alone survive the counter attack by the Wehrmacht and their vassals.
I have a hard time seeing the US coming to the aid of the Soviets in any meaningful way. The UK, France and the rest of Europe possibly but not the soviets.
Well unless Japan declares war onto the Soviet Union, the leand lease can go from the United States West Coast to Soviet Union port of Vladivostok by Soviet flagged ships.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 14:04:19 GMT
Agree with betrayal of Poland and everyone else. After all he is hitler
So we have a replay of the Napoleonic wars? A sea power confronts a massive continental land power. Without the Red Army to attrite the Wehrmacht I don't see the Brit empire having any chance of successfully invading Europe, let alone survive the counter attack by the Wehrmacht and their vassals.
I have a hard time seeing the US coming to the aid of the Soviets in any meaningful way. The UK, France and the rest of Europe possibly but not the soviets.
In this case, the Anglo-Franco-American naval fleet would be more massive than the Reich's fleet. The U.S. would have to use the Arctic and Far East route to supply the Soviets with Lend Lease aid. Yes Gillan1220, the German navy would be massively outnumbered by that alliance. However, with Hitler moving only EAST with Poland as an ally why would the UK, France come to the aid of the soviets? If you ask me as an American, I'd see the fascists and the communists butchering each other wholesale as the best of all worlds. Let them destroy each other. I don't see any US lend lease for the soviets.
IMO, Churchill was right in 1918. We should have killed the monster in the crib. The time for lend lease was to the white Russians. Now that would make an interesting ATL? What do you folks think of a plausible defeat of the Bolshaviks with the aid of the Brits, USA and France? Is it worth starting another thread? I'd like to stay on the WW II for now.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Oct 13, 2021 14:05:39 GMT
Agree with betrayal of Poland and everyone else. After all he is hitler
So we have a replay of the Napoleonic wars? A sea power confronts a massive continental land power. Without the Red Army to attrite the Wehrmacht I don't see the Brit empire having any chance of successfully invading Europe, let alone survive the counter attack by the Wehrmacht and their vassals.
I have a hard time seeing the US coming to the aid of the Soviets in any meaningful way. The UK, France and the rest of Europe possibly but not the soviets.
Well unless Japan declares war onto the Soviet Union, the leand lease can go from the United States West Coast to Soviet Union port of Vladivostok by Soviet flagged ships. Japan would commit another logistical suicide if it declares war on the Soviets. China bogged down the IJA, the USSR would be a supply nightmare of biblical proportions as we discussed on the Japan Attacks Russia thread.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 13, 2021 14:06:05 GMT
In this case, the Anglo-Franco-American naval fleet would be more massive than the Reich's fleet. The U.S. would have to use the Arctic and Far East route to supply the Soviets with Lend Lease aid. Yes Gillan1220, the German navy would be massively outnumbered by that alliance. However, with Hitler moving only EAST with Poland as an ally why would the UK, France come to the aid of the soviets? If you ask me as an American, I'd see the fascists and the communists butchering each other wholesale as the best of all worlds. Let them destroy each other. I don't see any US lend lease for the soviets. The problem is the one left standing will turn its attention towards the West with a lot of resources they might have gain.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 13, 2021 14:14:40 GMT
Yes Gillan1220, the German navy would be massively outnumbered by that alliance. However, with Hitler moving only EAST with Poland as an ally why would the UK, France come to the aid of the soviets? If you ask me as an American, I'd see the fascists and the communists butchering each other wholesale as the best of all worlds. Let them destroy each other. I don't see any US lend lease for the soviets. The problem is the one left standing will turn its attention towards the West with a lot of resources they might have gain. Do you really think the few "Leaders" we had in the west with that sort of insight could sell that possible distant threat to the average Frenchman, Brit and American voter. These are democracies and our leaders have to work within the consent of the governed. You have to factor in the butcher bill of WW I was still in the minds of the citizens of the Democracies. Tough sell
IMO.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 13, 2021 14:20:47 GMT
The problem is the one left standing will turn its attention towards the West with a lot of resources they might have gain. Do you really think the few "Leaders" we had in the west with that sort of insight could sell that possible distant threat to the average Frenchman, Brit and American voter. These are democracies and our leaders have to work within the consent of the governed. You have to factor in the butcher bill of WW I was still in the minds of the citizens of the Democracies. Tough sell
IMO.
Well FDR tried his best to bend the rules of neutrality.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 13, 2021 15:16:30 GMT
The best thing Hitler could have done to buy Germany some time was not to declare war against the United States. Lordroel my friend, how about this for an AT. Hitler does not go to war with anyone but the Soviets. Instead of invading Poland he manages to to form an alliance with Poland. Given Poland's distrust of the soviets this might just be possible.
Now we have all of the might of the Nazi war machine concentrated on the reds. No BS in Greece. No starting barbarosa too late in the year. No sapping the strength of the Luftwaffe in the west. Just plain Blitzkrieg against the Red army. A Red army that is still suffering from Joe's purges.
One more difference is the Nazi's do not pillage until the war is won. You get the Ukrain, Chechnians, Georgians and many other enslaved Soviet republics as allies. Let them loose on the communists and they will make the Gestapo look like "Wilderness Girls".
In this ATL Hitler takes out the soviets, securing his oil needs and other natural resources with newly "Freed" states to draw manpower from.
THEN he rolls West and defeats France, slaughters the BEF on the beaches of Dunkirk and Destroys the RAF. In effect he reverses the order of his conquests.
1941 Nazi Germany vs Soviets ALONE: Who would have won?
Well if somehow Germany and Poland formed an alliance then attacked the Soviets they have a number of advantages. a) There will be additional forces because of the Polish army. b) They will be starting somewhat further east since the area annexed by the Soviets OTL
c) They might also be able to flank any defences by operating through the Baltic states as well, which are unlikely to be seized by the Soviets here. d) Since there's probably no Winter War here the Soviets don't get a clear example of how crap their army organisation is. e) They might be able to attack earlier, say in 1940 instead of 1941 - although this could also have a down side. f) They might get Japanese support in the east which while not decisive in itself due to the terrain would be an additional burden for the USSR in such a crisis.
On the down side and with no attack on the western powers before this: a) There's no looting of western territories, especially France and also of Poland to provide additional resources to keep the 3rd Reich afloat. b) Without the OTL pact or the continuing war with Britain Stalin is likely to be more prepared for an attack and there would have been markedly less supplies from Russia to Germany. c) Also without the OTL fighting in Poland and the west the Germans are also going to have a lot less battle experience as they learnt a lot in those conflicts, although that would also mean some losses avoided. d) The further east start might have logistical problems, especially if starting earlier gives less time to develops logistics in the region while the Soviets would be nearer their production centres and have their existing defences which according to some sources were partly dismantled OTL. Also an earlier state means not only less production time for the Nazis but also the Soviets aren't in the middle of a re equipping of their force. As such it will be older and less well equipped but it will be units that the men are more familiar with. e) The Nazi-Polish alliance will always be unstable with mutual mistrust which is likely to be a limiting factor. f) Will Germany still be able to call on forces from allies such as Hungary, Slovakia and most of all Italy and Romania? Italy is unlikely to be significantly involved, other than possibly some fairly token 'volunteer' units. If Romania wasn't involved then it drastically shortens the front and make the distance to places in the south even greater. h) Given the massive German build up the western powers will also be continuing their own defensive moves, especially after the seizure of the rump Czech state in March 39. As such France is unlikely to be a push over and while - in the short term - the allies are unlikely to come to the aid of the Soviets I doubt that the Germans could leave their western borders largely undefended for any period of time.
I'm also doubtful that: a) You could suppress the anti-Slavic ideas that the Nazis have been pushing so hard for the last few years, especially if as OTL they start going through Soviets lands very quickly and think it will soon be over. b) For all the revulsion that Stalin's regime generated in the west both Britain and France would be worried about the Nazis as well and especially if their advancing toward the Urals say. They know enough about basic balance of power factors even without a regime as vile as the Nazis. As such if the Soviets look like they might collapse in the 1st year or two its likely to cause concern, even if this is largely a further defensive build up and might also be some pressure on the Nazis to limit their gains. If it turns out to be a long conflict that bleeds both sides white with no clear winner, although the Nazi-Polish bloc makes significant gains that could be a different matter.
PS - Just watched most of that video link. Some basic good points but a hell of a lot of errors there. Not all favourable to the Germans as with the Winter War still occurring I would expect that Finland would go for the Continuation War as OTL. However while Germany needs a lot less men garrisoning the western conquests it also fails to factor in the large amount of loot that Germany took, from France especially let alone where is Germany going to get the gold to pay for those imports mentioned. Also all those peace agreements that occur and Hitler being described as a great strategic leader!!
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