lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 4, 2021 14:11:10 GMT
What if: America’s Cold War… with Chile goes hot (1891)So reading this piece on Military History Now called War Scares – Seven Conflicts That Nearly Happened (But Didn’t) if found this: By the late 19th Century, America’s expanding influence in the Pacific was facing challenges from the most unlikely of adversaries – Chile. After leading a successful regional war with Spain, the budding South American power had amassed a sizeable navy and was actually keen on building its own empire. In 1885, Chile began by occupying parts of Panama, much to the annoyance of Washington. Three years later, it seized Easter Island in the South Pacific. By the end of the decade, America and Chile seemed to be on a collision course for war. Then in 1891, a mob in in Valparaiso killed two American sailors on shore leave from the USS Baltimore. The U.S. government lodged an official protest with Santiago. Amazingly, it was as all but ignored. In response, the Benjamin Harrison Administration mobilized the fleet and for a while it seemed that all out war might be in the offing. Facing certain defeat, Chile backed down and offered to pay reparations of $75,000. Calm was restored. The entire affair went down in history as the Baltimore Crisis.So what if there was a American-Chili War in 1891.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 4, 2021 16:39:23 GMT
What if: America’s Cold War… with Chile goes hot (1891)So reading this piece on Military History Now called War Scares – Seven Conflicts That Nearly Happened (But Didn’t) if found this: By the late 19th Century, America’s expanding influence in the Pacific was facing challenges from the most unlikely of adversaries – Chile. After leading a successful regional war with Spain, the budding South American power had amassed a sizeable navy and was actually keen on building its own empire. In 1885, Chile began by occupying parts of Panama, much to the annoyance of Washington. Three years later, it seized Easter Island in the South Pacific. By the end of the decade, America and Chile seemed to be on a collision course for war. Then in 1891, a mob in in Valparaiso killed two American sailors on shore leave from the USS Baltimore. The U.S. government lodged an official protest with Santiago. Amazingly, it was as all but ignored. In response, the Benjamin Harrison Administration mobilized the fleet and for a while it seemed that all out war might be in the offing. Facing certain defeat, Chile backed down and offered to pay reparations of $75,000. Calm was restored. The entire affair went down in history as the Baltimore Crisis.So what if there was a American-Chili War in 1891.
Well Chile would lose, eventually, although the US might find it harder than they initially expected. Unless they get some of Chile's neighbours to help out. It has somewhat dodgy relations with Argentina and having defeated both Bolivia and Peru in the War_of_the_Pacific in 1879-84 and gained substantial territories from them they could well be looking for revenge. I can't see Chile losing any of its mainland territories to the US but it could get dog-piled by its neighbours and also the US could take some islands as Chile had a number of major nitrate centres which brought it in a sizeable amount of wealth. Although they don't, as far as I'm aware, have such supplies themselves this could include Easter Island.
The key issues might be about how it would affect both developments in the region, especially if one or more of its neighbours join the conflict against them and also whether it opens up a period of American external imperialism prior to the OTL Spanish American war. It could prompt the US to throw its weight about more and possibly an earlier war with Spain. Or if the US itself gains relatively little from the conflict and it costs a fair bit you could see a revival of anti-imperialism inside the US and a more isolationist country as a result, at least for a while.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 4, 2021 18:49:24 GMT
I think this is wildly overblown. The Chileans had just had a sort of a civil war (Started in January, ended in August) and I really don't think they'd be up for a "real" war so soon after a major internal disruption.
That being said, there's little enough chance for the two combatants to actually come to grips with one another. The US was still in the construction phase of the early pre-dreadnaughts, and a fair number of the US Navy was still wooden. There's range issues, even if the US tries to coal and resupply in the Panamanian part of Columbia, its a really hard slog to get a fleet to Chile. Getting troops to Chile to invade would be problematical in the extreme. Look how hard it was to take Cuba seven years later and Cuba is right off the coast of the US.
At worst, I think we're looking at a half assed blockade attempt, until cooler heads prevailed, much as what happened actually.
Belushi TD
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 4, 2021 18:53:30 GMT
I think this is wildly overblown. The Chileans had just had a sort of a civil war (Started in January, ended in August) and I really don't think they'd be up for a "real" war so soon after a major internal disruption. That being said, there's little enough chance for the two combatants to actually come to grips with one another. The US was still in the construction phase of the early pre-dreadnaughts, and a fair number of the US Navy was still wooden. There's range issues, even if the US tries to coal and resupply in the Panamanian part of Columbia, its a really hard slog to get a fleet to Chile. Getting troops to Chile to invade would be problematical in the extreme. Look how hard it was to take Cuba seven years later and Cuba is right off the coast of the US. At worst, I think we're looking at a half assed blockade attempt, until cooler heads prevailed, much as what happened actually. Belushi TD Even in 1891 the United States Navy would be bigger then the Chilean Navy, even if it is only the United states Navy operating out of the Pacific. |
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 4, 2021 19:38:13 GMT
I'm not entirely certain that's true. The US Navy was pretty damned anemic in 1891. Capitan Prat was armed with 9.4 inch guns, which I think was larger than anything the USN had going for it at the time. Yes, there were several armored cruisers, but again, getting them to Chile to have a fight was problematic at best. Anyway, this page here, www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/us-ship-force-levels.html#1886 , has a list of all the US Navy ships active in 1891 (last column). Total is 46. However, the vast majority of them can be discounted as any kind of threat to Chile. To be brutally honest, the US navy was pretty much impotent at this time. I'd say the 8 cruisers, the torpedo boat and maybe some of the "Steel Navy" ships could make it to Chile and be useful once there. I can't find a similar list of ships for the Chilean navy, but I did find this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_decommissioned_ships_of_the_Chilean_Navy If you look through it, you can see the date ships were commissioned and decommissioned. I have not put together an exhaustive list, and am not going to, but it appears that there were something like 30 or so ships active in 1891, so I'd say at least in effective force, the Chilean navy was at least as large as the US Navy, and probably larger when you're looking at the numbers of ships that could prosecute a war off the coast of Chile. Belushi TD |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 5, 2021 10:08:07 GMT
I'm not entirely certain that's true. The US Navy was pretty damned anemic in 1891. Capitan Prat was armed with 9.4 inch guns, which I think was larger than anything the USN had going for it at the time. Yes, there were several armored cruisers, but again, getting them to Chile to have a fight was problematic at best. Anyway, this page here, www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/us-ship-force-levels.html#1886 , has a list of all the US Navy ships active in 1891 (last column). Total is 46. However, the vast majority of them can be discounted as any kind of threat to Chile. To be brutally honest, the US navy was pretty much impotent at this time. I'd say the 8 cruisers, the torpedo boat and maybe some of the "Steel Navy" ships could make it to Chile and be useful once there. I can't find a similar list of ships for the Chilean navy, but I did find this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_decommissioned_ships_of_the_Chilean_Navy If you look through it, you can see the date ships were commissioned and decommissioned. I have not put together an exhaustive list, and am not going to, but it appears that there were something like 30 or so ships active in 1891, so I'd say at least in effective force, the Chilean navy was at least as large as the US Navy, and probably larger when you're looking at the numbers of ships that could prosecute a war off the coast of Chile. Belushi TD
Good points. I knew that the USN was badly depleted and that Chile had a pretty powerful navy for the region but didn't realise the balance was that tilted in Chile's favour.
Steve
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 5, 2021 13:24:09 GMT
Yeah, the US Navy went from being the worlds largest in modern ships in 1865 to being, well... not by 1875. It wasn't until the building program took off in the 1890's that there were ships worth it. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the double turreted monitors that were build in the 1880s... I say built in the 1880s because some of them took 7 years to complete. And there were a couple of them that were considered refits, where they effectively lifted up the ships bell and the name plate and slid a new ship underneath. Of course, it was a seriously obsolete ship, but at least it was new! Here's a link to some info about the time period. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Navy#Decline_of_the_Navy_(1865%E2%80%931882) Belushi TD |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 11, 2021 15:38:11 GMT
Yeah, the US Navy went from being the worlds largest in modern ships in 1865 to being, well... not by 1875. It wasn't until the building program took off in the 1890's that there were ships worth it. I'm sure most of you are familiar with the double turreted monitors that were build in the 1880s... I say built in the 1880s because some of them took 7 years to complete. And there were a couple of them that were considered refits, where they effectively lifted up the ships bell and the name plate and slid a new ship underneath. Of course, it was a seriously obsolete ship, but at least it was new! Here's a link to some info about the time period. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Navy#Decline_of_the_Navy_(1865%E2%80%931882) Belushi TD Also Chile just needs to keep a eye out towards the Cape Horn for any United States Navy ship that move from the East Coast to Chili. Also you should read this article: “LOOKS LIKE A CHILEAN WAR”: THE BALTIMORE INCIDENT AS COUNTERFACTUAL EXERCISEThere is a interesting quote from the Peruvian minister in Washington, Jose Yrigoyen who cabled his government the following: “The difficulties the [U.S.] squadron will have in a war with Chile.” Without “coaling station in the Pacific,” he argued perceptibly, the U.S. ships would be forced to ferry coal from San Francisco, a “difficult task, above all if Chile dedicates a few of its ships to capturing this important element of the American squadron.” These geographic challenges injected a sobering realism into the United States’ preparations for war.So this is the United State Navy cruiser force in 1891 if i am correct: Atlanta-class protected cruiser USS Atlanta (1884), operates as part of the Squadron of Evolution.
Chicago-class protected cruiser
USS Chicago (1885), serves as the Flagship of the Squadron of Evolution. Boston-class protected cruiserUSS Boston (1887), operates as part of the Squadron of Evolution. Maine-class armored cruiser
USS Maine (1889), operates as part of the North Atlantic Squadron. Vesuvius-class dynamite gun cruiser
USS Vesuvius (1890) operates as part of the North Atlantic Squadron. Philadelphia-class protected cruiser USS Philadelphia (1890), flagship of the North Atlantic Squadron. Baltimore-class protected cruiserUSS Baltimore (1890), operates as part of the South Pacific Squadron. San Francisco-class protected cruiserUSS San Francisco (1890) flagship of the South Pacific Squadron. Newark-class protected cruiser USS Newark (1891), no Squadron assigned. |
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