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Post by simon darkshade on Sept 26, 2021 9:48:40 GMT
The traditional concept of the ‘cradles’ of civilisation are Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, China, Peru and Mesoamerica.
What other locations would work as cradles?
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 26, 2021 10:36:42 GMT
The traditional concept of the ‘cradles’ of civilisation are Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, China, Peru and Mesoamerica. What other locations would work as cradles? Some in Africa. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Sept 26, 2021 14:58:57 GMT
The traditional concept of the ‘cradles’ of civilisation are Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, China, Peru and Mesoamerica. What other locations would work as cradles?
Possibly the Danube and Ganges valleys? Might be somewhere in Central Asia in a wetter climate although that region tends to be more vulnerable to horse nomads? Chinese civilization started in the Huang Ha/Yellow River but possibly something in the Yangtze which develops an independent culture or further south in the Mekong or Irrawaddy rivers or the islands of Indonesia?
The general view seems to be that good agricultural land - once cleared - with a good water supply and also rivers or island bases also gives decent transport for bulk goods.
The problem with Africa and to a lesser degree the Americas is the lack of a good range of domesticated animals and plants, plus that south of the Sahara it tends to be plagued with diseases. [Which I have seen suggested as problems in early Ganges and SE Asia issues.
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575
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Post by 575 on Sept 30, 2021 18:18:51 GMT
The traditional concept of the ‘cradles’ of civilisation are Egypt, Mesopotamia, the Indus Valley, China, Peru and Mesoamerica. What other locations would work as cradles?
Possibly the Danube and Ganges valleys? Might be somewhere in Central Asia in a wetter climate although that region tends to be more vulnerable to horse nomads? Chinese civilization started in the Huang Ha/Yellow River but possibly something in the Yangtze which develops an independent culture or further south in the Mekong or Irrawaddy rivers or the islands of Indonesia?
The general view seems to be that good agricultural land - once cleared - with a good water supply and also rivers or island bases also gives decent transport for bulk goods.
The problem with Africa and to a lesser degree the Americas is the lack of a good range of domesticated animals and plants, plus that south of the Sahara it tends to be plagued with diseases. [Which I have seen suggested as problems in early Ganges and SE Asia issues.
Danube - how about the Pannonian Plain i.e. Hungary and northern Yugoslavia. All the fresh water you need, nice climate, lots of domesticable animals, lots of rivers passing through, surrounded by mountain ranges even a traderoute from days of introduction of farming to Europe from Anatolia! Was it just too easy to make a living to set up society with all its rules and control? No need for irrigation. Religious practices in neighbouring areas like central Germany during the Bronze Age with astronomy practised to reckon time and seasons. There was kingdoms and principalities in Europe during the Bronze Age but for some reason - or we haven't just discovered it yet - no local cradle of Civilization!
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 1, 2021 10:38:14 GMT
Possibly the Danube and Ganges valleys? Might be somewhere in Central Asia in a wetter climate although that region tends to be more vulnerable to horse nomads? Chinese civilization started in the Huang Ha/Yellow River but possibly something in the Yangtze which develops an independent culture or further south in the Mekong or Irrawaddy rivers or the islands of Indonesia?
The general view seems to be that good agricultural land - once cleared - with a good water supply and also rivers or island bases also gives decent transport for bulk goods.
The problem with Africa and to a lesser degree the Americas is the lack of a good range of domesticated animals and plants, plus that south of the Sahara it tends to be plagued with diseases. [Which I have seen suggested as problems in early Ganges and SE Asia issues.
Danube - how about the Pannonian Plain i.e. Hungary and northern Yugoslavia. All the fresh water you need, nice climate, lots of domesticable animals, lots of rivers passing through, surrounded by mountain ranges even a traderoute from days of introduction of farming to Europe from Anatolia! Was it just too easy to make a living to set up society with all its rules and control? No need for irrigation. Religious practices in neighbouring areas like central Germany during the Bronze Age with astronomy practised to reckon time and seasons. There was kingdoms and principalities in Europe during the Bronze Age but for some reason - or we haven't just discovered it yet - no local cradle of Civilization!
That might be a factor I've seen suggested before. That the control needed for major irrigation projects in river valleys was necessary for the centralised monarchies and priesthoods and urban systems that dominated such states and enabled them to become lasting empires. Possibly the decentralised tribal kingdoms simply didn't need that level of complexity and hence never built up the reserves of wealth and the like that prompted deeper specialistation and development of things like literature?
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 1, 2021 13:40:31 GMT
If we're talking about a cradle of civilization, you have to look at the climate. Can the climate AT THAT TIME support agriculture with no domestic animals? Everything has to be done by hand, so you're looking at river valleys (no rocks, good, rich soil that is easily tilled by hand) with a good climate. No really hard freezes, in fact, little to no cold weather at all. Can't realistically be in a major jungle area, as its really hard to live in a jungle as everything is trying to eat you. Yes, there have been civilizations that arose in jungle areas, but I don't think you can really call them a cradle. You also need readily accessible natural resources to start the process of civilization. Flint for the stone age, and then ores and native copper as well as ores of tin and other easily smeltable metals. Clay for ceramics.
remember, by using the term cradle, we're talking about 5 to 10,000 years BC, reaching back to the end of the last ice age. All the areas that were cradles had very different climates then than they do now. The Danube/Yugoslavia area I think is a non starter, due to the cold nature of winters as well as the glacial outwash nature of most of the soils in the area (lots of rocks/boulders).
A possibility would have been the Mississippi valley, perhaps in northern Louisiana or Alabama. Good river, regular floods to replenish nutrients in the soil, climate was fairly temperate at the time. Only problem, of course, is that there weren't any people there in the timeframe we are talking about.
Belushi TD
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 1, 2021 14:46:32 GMT
Climate was the big factor that kind of kicked the Danube out of major contention for me. I do like the idea of the Mississippi Valley and, for some reason, the Plate Estuary.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 1, 2021 22:12:56 GMT
I'm not sure about the Platte estuary. I think it was, at the time, far less kind to people than it is now, but I could be wrong.
I'm actually thinking that both the Platte and the Mississippi both had some more severe winters than they do now.
Belushi TD
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2021 10:51:16 GMT
If we're talking about a cradle of civilization, you have to look at the climate. Can the climate AT THAT TIME support agriculture with no domestic animals? Everything has to be done by hand, so you're looking at river valleys (no rocks, good, rich soil that is easily tilled by hand) with a good climate. No really hard freezes, in fact, little to no cold weather at all. Can't realistically be in a major jungle area, as its really hard to live in a jungle as everything is trying to eat you. Yes, there have been civilizations that arose in jungle areas, but I don't think you can really call them a cradle. You also need readily accessible natural resources to start the process of civilization. Flint for the stone age, and then ores and native copper as well as ores of tin and other easily smeltable metals. Clay for ceramics. remember, by using the term cradle, we're talking about 5 to 10,000 years BC, reaching back to the end of the last ice age. All the areas that were cradles had very different climates then than they do now. The Danube/Yugoslavia area I think is a non starter, due to the cold nature of winters as well as the glacial outwash nature of most of the soils in the area (lots of rocks/boulders). A possibility would have been the Mississippi valley, perhaps in northern Louisiana or Alabama. Good river, regular floods to replenish nutrients in the soil, climate was fairly temperate at the time. Only problem, of course, is that there weren't any people there in the timeframe we are talking about. Belushi TD
I'm not sure about jungle as I think a fair amount of the Nile delta and lower Mesopotamia were pretty much jungles when 1st settled. Of course relatively small jungles bordered by more easily settled lands so when population grew it was a basis for clearing the deeper jungle of the delta areas. The Maya showed that even in larger areas of jungle/rain forest a fairly advanced civilisation is possible. Albeit that being in the Americas they have severe limitations on the domestically animals and plants available.
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575
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Post by 575 on Oct 3, 2021 8:36:34 GMT
Pannonian Plain is a loess area which tend to get nutrients washed out though the glacier outwash may replenish whats washed out - see this project in Greenland snm.ku.dk/english/news/all_news/2016/2016.4/greenland-mud-to-ensure-the-worlds-food-supply/. Its a fairly dry area with rainfall at important times with rather cold winters and lacking stones but the surrounding mountains are rich in this respect - Czech Carpatians and Balkans delivered lots of the Copper found in Northen Europe. |
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 4, 2021 18:55:31 GMT
That's all well and good, but the abstract of this paper here: www.intechopen.com/chapters/73350 states that it was much cooler during the Pleistocene. There's enough cold weather there now that I think it would effectively prevent it being a cradle of civilization. Remember, we're looking at the timeframe where humans were shifting from a hunter gatherer society to an agricultural one. I suppose its possible that the climate change about 12,000 years ago could have permitted farming to occur, so I suppose its just about as likely as any of the other possibilities. Belushi TD |
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Oct 6, 2021 1:28:06 GMT
In terms of seafaring civilizations though, any of the proto-Austronesian entities would have been the cradle of a sea-based civilization.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Oct 6, 2021 14:53:29 GMT
Depends on what you mean by cradle in this case, I think. To make sea going boats, you pretty much already have to have civilization, or at least enough to be able to feed and clothe the people who are going to build the boat that can survive on the ocean. You need tools as well. Even the round boats for which the earliest evidence exists needed some tools, and those were only really good on lakes and maybe a slow moving river.
Yes, you could have a cradle for a sea going civilization in any of the proto-Austronesian areas, but civilization would already be fairly well advanced to permit that. Or at least that's how I interpret the original post. I could be wrong.
Belushi TD
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SinghSong
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Post by SinghSong on Oct 11, 2021 10:13:16 GMT
The New Guinea Highlands essentially was one of the earliest cradles of civilization IOTL- without it, we wouldn't have had cultivated sugarcane, bananas, breadfruit, coconuts, taro or any number of other crops which had a massive contribution to global civilization. The main thing with this particular cradle of civilization, though, is that the resident peoples never really advanced past the ritual warfare stage, never unified under one banner, and as such, never got around to really directly expanding their civilization beyond its cradle... |
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Post by simon darkshade on Oct 12, 2021 13:37:29 GMT
When it comes to civilisation, I tend towards the old school definition used by Michael Wood and others - life in cities. Whilst the New Guinea natives grew crops, they never made that jump from the Neolithic era in other ways. For that reason, and the limitations outlined by Diamond in Guns, Germs and Steel, I don’t view them as a cradle of civilisation so much as a cradle of crop species.
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