stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 3, 2021 9:43:12 GMT
Many thanks. I read the link to a previous discussion on this site so know a decent bit about the Rommel book. On the 1945 as I say I have doubts that the Nazis would win against the Soviets given a Dec POD [assuming its simply Hitler decides not to dow the US after Pearl Harbour and Roosevelt can't get up the political will to dow Germany and than L-L continues.] The other point I would be doubtful of would be Britain being in that decent a position if Germany develops V weapons as OTL, especially the V-2's as while inaccurate their going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Plus depending on how both sides allocate resources the Battle of the Atlantic could be a lot tighter in the longer run. Definitely could see a US that's avoided the big war not being too eager for war with Germany as, fighting only against Japan their likely to win that some time earlier but its probably going to be a hell of a lot costlier as with no time for nukes or B-29 fire-bombings its likely to mean an invasion of Japan which, while probably not as expensive as some feared its going to be bloody. Britain would have to be in a very bad way for any invasion of the country to be a realistic possibility given the probable land and air defences and limited German naval/amphibious capacity. However its the sort of thing that an author would put in for dramatic impact. The big danger as I say would be bombardment and possibly blockade. Although a lot would depend on what happened elsewhere of course which might cause a serious drain on British/Commonwealth resources. However definitely a decent idea, although with the emphasis on the personal duel between Martel and Skorzeny I suspect that's more for book sales than the alternative history market. Which unfortunately only makes sense for a commercial project as there's a much bigger market for dramatic war fiction than for AH.
Steve
, in the novel 1945, Hitler gets into a plain crash on December 6th 1941 and taking a part of the novel this happens: 'Hitler would take care of the problem for him. Hitler had spent several weeks in a coma, during which time a triumvirate composed of Göring, Goebbels, and Haider had taken charge. Realizing that they were on the edge of disaster in Russia, far from declaring war on the USA, the three immediately declared an end to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic, thereby blocking Roosevelt's hope for a final provocation. Next they had pulled off 'a masterful strategic withdrawal along the entire Russia front, falling back before the offensive of the Russian Siberian divisions. Had the German army followed the dark romanticism of Hitler's vision and never relinquished an inch of conquered territory, it was generally agreed, the Wehrmacht would have pretty much ceased to exist in the East. Instead, the Russians wound up exhausted and overextended, and the Nazi offensive was renewed in the spring. Meanwhile America, Russia's only real hope, had become fully committed in the Pacific. Before Hitler had recovered enough to resume power, the ruling triumvirate had managed to ameliorate and block the worst of Himmler's SS atrocities as well, committing the Reich to a quasi-independent Ukraine. Result: thirty-nine divisions of Ukrainian and anti-Communist Russians in the Nazi ranks. It did not matter that after the war the SS gained back its power in the eastern occupied lands. The war by then was already won. The result was inevitable. In '43 Russia threw in the towel,'.
OK thanks. That gives a basis for developments as in the book, although abandoning sub warfare pretty much completely would aid the allies, especially but not only Britain considerably.
Did this mean there was an effective cease-fire if not some sort of peace settlement after 43?
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 3, 2021 10:04:55 GMT
stevep , in the novel 1945, Hitler gets into a plain crash on December 6th 1941 and taking a part of the novel this happens: 'Hitler would take care of the problem for him. Hitler had spent several weeks in a coma, during which time a triumvirate composed of Göring, Goebbels, and Haider had taken charge. Realizing that they were on the edge of disaster in Russia, far from declaring war on the USA, the three immediately declared an end to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic, thereby blocking Roosevelt's hope for a final provocation. Next they had pulled off 'a masterful strategic withdrawal along the entire Russia front, falling back before the offensive of the Russian Siberian divisions. Had the German army followed the dark romanticism of Hitler's vision and never relinquished an inch of conquered territory, it was generally agreed, the Wehrmacht would have pretty much ceased to exist in the East. Instead, the Russians wound up exhausted and overextended, and the Nazi offensive was renewed in the spring. Meanwhile America, Russia's only real hope, had become fully committed in the Pacific. Before Hitler had recovered enough to resume power, the ruling triumvirate had managed to ameliorate and block the worst of Himmler's SS atrocities as well, committing the Reich to a quasi-independent Ukraine. Result: thirty-nine divisions of Ukrainian and anti-Communist Russians in the Nazi ranks. It did not matter that after the war the SS gained back its power in the eastern occupied lands. The war by then was already won. The result was inevitable. In '43 Russia threw in the towel,'. OK thanks. That gives a basis for developments as in the book, although abandoning sub warfare pretty much completely would aid the allies, especially but not only Britain considerably.
Did this mean there was an effective cease-fire if not some sort of peace settlement after 43? Steve
As far as I know from the book there was a peace deal between the United Kingdom and the Third Reich that allowed the British to keep their Empire and the Third Reich to keep what they had invaded and seized. |
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oscssw
Senior chief petty officer
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Post by oscssw on Oct 11, 2021 13:27:37 GMT
Many thanks. I read the link to a previous discussion on this site so know a decent bit about the Rommel book. On the 1945 as I say I have doubts that the Nazis would win against the Soviets given a Dec POD [assuming its simply Hitler decides not to dow the US after Pearl Harbour and Roosevelt can't get up the political will to dow Germany and than L-L continues.] The other point I would be doubtful of would be Britain being in that decent a position if Germany develops V weapons as OTL, especially the V-2's as while inaccurate their going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Plus depending on how both sides allocate resources the Battle of the Atlantic could be a lot tighter in the longer run. Definitely could see a US that's avoided the big war not being too eager for war with Germany as, fighting only against Japan their likely to win that some time earlier but its probably going to be a hell of a lot costlier as with no time for nukes or B-29 fire-bombings its likely to mean an invasion of Japan which, while probably not as expensive as some feared its going to be bloody. Britain would have to be in a very bad way for any invasion of the country to be a realistic possibility given the probable land and air defences and limited German naval/amphibious capacity. However its the sort of thing that an author would put in for dramatic impact. The big danger as I say would be bombardment and possibly blockade. Although a lot would depend on what happened elsewhere of course which might cause a serious drain on British/Commonwealth resources. However definitely a decent idea, although with the emphasis on the personal duel between Martel and Skorzeny I suspect that's more for book sales than the alternative history market. Which unfortunately only makes sense for a commercial project as there's a much bigger market for dramatic war fiction than for AH.
Steve
, in the novel 1945, Hitler gets into a plain crash on December 6th 1941 and taking a part of the novel this happens: 'Hitler would take care of the problem for him. Hitler had spent several weeks in a coma, during which time a triumvirate composed of Göring, Goebbels, and Haider had taken charge. Realizing that they were on the edge of disaster in Russia, far from declaring war on the USA, the three immediately declared an end to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic, thereby blocking Roosevelt's hope for a final provocation. Next they had pulled off 'a masterful strategic withdrawal along the entire Russia front, falling back before the offensive of the Russian Siberian divisions. Had the German army followed the dark romanticism of Hitler's vision and never relinquished an inch of conquered territory, it was generally agreed, the Wehrmacht would have pretty much ceased to exist in the East. Instead, the Russians wound up exhausted and overextended, and the Nazi offensive was renewed in the spring. Meanwhile America, Russia's only real hope, had become fully committed in the Pacific. Before Hitler had recovered enough to resume power, the ruling triumvirate had managed to ameliorate and block the worst of Himmler's SS atrocities as well, committing the Reich to a quasi-independent Ukraine. Result: thirty-nine divisions of Ukrainian and anti-Communist Russians in the Nazi ranks. It did not matter that after the war the SS gained back its power in the eastern occupied lands. The war by then was already won. The result was inevitable. In '43 Russia threw in the towel,'. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 11, 2021 15:06:14 GMT
stevep , in the novel 1945, Hitler gets into a plain crash on December 6th 1941 and taking a part of the novel this happens: 'Hitler would take care of the problem for him. Hitler had spent several weeks in a coma, during which time a triumvirate composed of Göring, Goebbels, and Haider had taken charge. Realizing that they were on the edge of disaster in Russia, far from declaring war on the USA, the three immediately declared an end to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic, thereby blocking Roosevelt's hope for a final provocation. Next they had pulled off 'a masterful strategic withdrawal along the entire Russia front, falling back before the offensive of the Russian Siberian divisions. Had the German army followed the dark romanticism of Hitler's vision and never relinquished an inch of conquered territory, it was generally agreed, the Wehrmacht would have pretty much ceased to exist in the East. Instead, the Russians wound up exhausted and overextended, and the Nazi offensive was renewed in the spring. Meanwhile America, Russia's only real hope, had become fully committed in the Pacific. Before Hitler had recovered enough to resume power, the ruling triumvirate had managed to ameliorate and block the worst of Himmler's SS atrocities as well, committing the Reich to a quasi-independent Ukraine. Result: thirty-nine divisions of Ukrainian and anti-Communist Russians in the Nazi ranks. It did not matter that after the war the SS gained back its power in the eastern occupied lands. The war by then was already won. The result was inevitable. In '43 Russia threw in the towel,'. Long enough to change the tide of the war it seems. But i think we are straying a lot away from the original topic of this thread. |
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