lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 29, 2021 15:31:21 GMT
Did Lee not lose the battle as OTL. Lee lost big time. If Meade had immediately pressed a counter attack there was a good chance he could have annihilated The army Of Northern Virginia.
Here is what Abraham Lincoln wrote Meade in a letter of July 14, 1863.
“Again, my dear general, I do not believe you appreciate the magnitude of the misfortune involved in Lee’s escape. He was within your easy grasp, and to have closed upon him would, in connection with our other late successes, have ended the war. As it is, the war will be prolonged indefinitely.”
Lincoln was right for the following reasons.
First, there was NO confederate artillery to speak of. Porter Alexander exhausted ALL of his munition attempting to silence the Union guns.
Second, there was one small understrength brigade available as a coherent unit that was available to Lee that hadn’t participated in the assault. In short, Lee had nothing.
Third, the men from the assault weren’t much of an option: they’d just crossed open ground under intense fire in hot July heat and been destroyed (50% casualties). Only Pettigrew out of the Brigade and Regimental commanders was still standing so all senior officers were casualties. And they weren’t in any coherent unit. Lee told Picket to form his Division in-case Meade did exactly this and Pickett’s response was “Sir, I have no division.”
Fourth, those who feel that Meade’s counter-attack would have been identical to Pickett’s assault (and therefore a similar result)…that thinking is badly flawed. For starters, in the entire history of the Civil War, no Confederate assault on massed Union guns succeeded. Quite simply, Union artillery was pretty damn good (and far better than Confederate artillery both in this fight and every other one). Starting with Malvern Hill, in the East and the West, regardless of the unit or the leader, when the Confederates attempted an assault against massed Union artillery they always failed. Not so with the reverse. Second, while the Longstreet assault went against massed Union artillery, the counter-attack would not have: as I noted above, the Confederate artillery had exhausted all of their munitions—they had nothing left.
Fifth, the Confederates attacked with no artillery support—the assault kicked off when Porter Alexander’s guns had run out of munition. A Union assault would have benefited from nearly 100 guns raining fire and death down on to Confederate lines. They’d even have guns from Little Round Top bringing the hurt.
Sixth, I’ve walked that ground (from Seminary Ridge to Cemetery Ridge) twice (starting from the Confederate lines) in hot weather. I’ve got to tell you, it is FAR worse going uphill from Seminary Ridge to the Union lines. You’re going uphill. And for the Confederates, they had to climb a fence at the Emittsburg Road when they were in musket range and after almost all of their units had been decimated and mostly lost structure—wouldn’t be true for the Union. Most of the Union first line was behind a stone fence—a natural and effective defensive structure. No such structure existed at Seminary Ridge. To protect from artillery fire, troops would have fled in to the woods (thus making their defensive line even weaker).
A Caesar, Napoleon, Patton, Rommel, US Grant or John Reynolds would have led their troops to the attack against a greatly wounded AONV and ended the damn war. Savings countless lives.
Found this, it is the map of the TL it seems. Also i have merged a previous thread related to What if Lee did not win at Gettysburg by Winston Churchill into here with a bit more information. Map: The Treaty of Harper’s Ferry, signed between the Union and Confederate States on 6 September 1863. It embodied “two, fundamental propositions: that the South was independent, and the slaves were free.” —Churchill, 1930 |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Sept 29, 2021 21:06:12 GMT
Lee lost big time. If Meade had immediately pressed a counter attack there was a good chance he could have annihilated The army Of Northern Virginia.
Here is what Abraham Lincoln wrote Meade in a letter of July 14, 1863.
“Again, my dear general, I do not believe you appreciate the magnitude of the misfortune involved in Lee’s escape. He was within your easy grasp, and to have closed upon him would, in connection with our other late successes, have ended the war. As it is, the war will be prolonged indefinitely.”
Lincoln was right for the following reasons.
First, there was NO confederate artillery to speak of. Porter Alexander exhausted ALL of his munition attempting to silence the Union guns.
Second, there was one small understrength brigade available as a coherent unit that was available to Lee that hadn’t participated in the assault. In short, Lee had nothing.
Third, the men from the assault weren’t much of an option: they’d just crossed open ground under intense fire in hot July heat and been destroyed (50% casualties). Only Pettigrew out of the Brigade and Regimental commanders was still standing so all senior officers were casualties. And they weren’t in any coherent unit. Lee told Picket to form his Division in-case Meade did exactly this and Pickett’s response was “Sir, I have no division.”
Fourth, those who feel that Meade’s counter-attack would have been identical to Pickett’s assault (and therefore a similar result)…that thinking is badly flawed. For starters, in the entire history of the Civil War, no Confederate assault on massed Union guns succeeded. Quite simply, Union artillery was pretty damn good (and far better than Confederate artillery both in this fight and every other one). Starting with Malvern Hill, in the East and the West, regardless of the unit or the leader, when the Confederates attempted an assault against massed Union artillery they always failed. Not so with the reverse. Second, while the Longstreet assault went against massed Union artillery, the counter-attack would not have: as I noted above, the Confederate artillery had exhausted all of their munitions—they had nothing left.
Fifth, the Confederates attacked with no artillery support—the assault kicked off when Porter Alexander’s guns had run out of munition. A Union assault would have benefited from nearly 100 guns raining fire and death down on to Confederate lines. They’d even have guns from Little Round Top bringing the hurt.
Sixth, I’ve walked that ground (from Seminary Ridge to Cemetery Ridge) twice (starting from the Confederate lines) in hot weather. I’ve got to tell you, it is FAR worse going uphill from Seminary Ridge to the Union lines. You’re going uphill. And for the Confederates, they had to climb a fence at the Emittsburg Road when they were in musket range and after almost all of their units had been decimated and mostly lost structure—wouldn’t be true for the Union. Most of the Union first line was behind a stone fence—a natural and effective defensive structure. No such structure existed at Seminary Ridge. To protect from artillery fire, troops would have fled in to the woods (thus making their defensive line even weaker).
A Caesar, Napoleon, Patton, Rommel, US Grant or John Reynolds would have led their troops to the attack against a greatly wounded AONV and ended the damn war. Savings countless lives.
Found this, it is the map of the TL it seems. Also i have merged a previous thread related to What if Lee did not win at Gettysburg by Winston Churchill into here with a bit more information. Map: The Treaty of Harper’s Ferry, signed between the Union and Confederate States on 6 September 1863. It embodied “two, fundamental propositions: that the South was independent, and the slaves were free.” —Churchill, 1930As somebody who enjoys any timeline that has the North beaten by the south I have to ask what is the name of this timeline? Is it worth trying to find? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 30, 2021 2:45:36 GMT
Found this, it is the map of the TL it seems. Also i have merged a previous thread related to What if Lee did not win at Gettysburg by Winston Churchill into here with a bit more information. Map: The Treaty of Harper’s Ferry, signed between the Union and Confederate States on 6 September 1863. It embodied “two, fundamental propositions: that the South was independent, and the slaves were free.” —Churchill, 1930As somebody who enjoys any timeline that has the North beaten by the south I have to ask what is the name of this timeline? Is it worth trying to find? You can read it here: If Lee Had Not Won the Battle of Gettysburg by Winston Churchill |
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Post by oscssw on Sept 30, 2021 12:12:48 GMT
As much as I admire "The man who saved Western civilization" in the '40s I don't think he really understood what the civil war was all about. It was the fact most of the economic capital/wealth of the South was made up of slaves. The movers,the shakers and the real power of the Confederacy were the slave owners. No way even a victorious Lee would ever get "Those people"  to stand for abolition. All the BS about states rights was, at it's heart the right to own other human beings.
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Post by lordroel on Sept 30, 2021 14:29:10 GMT
As much as I admire "The man who saved Western civilization" in the '40s I don't think he really understood what the civil war was all about. It was the fact most of the economic capital/wealth of the South was made up of slaves. The movers,the shakers and the real power of the Confederacy were the slave owners. No way even a victorious Lee would ever get "Those people" to stand for abolition. All the BS about states rights was, at it's heart the right to own other human beings. See a lot of stories where Lee gets to become president and tries to end slavery, example being The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. |
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Post by oscssw on Sept 30, 2021 15:52:10 GMT
As much as I admire "The man who saved Western civilization" in the '40s I don't think he really understood what the civil war was all about. It was the fact most of the economic capital/wealth of the South was made up of slaves. The movers,the shakers and the real power of the Confederacy were the slave owners. No way even a victorious Lee would ever get "Those people" to stand for abolition. All the BS about states rights was, at it's heart the right to own other human beings. See a lot of stories where Lee gets to become president and tries to end slavery, example being The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. Lordroel my friend, Turtledove has always been a disappointment to me. As you know, I really like "Good" alternate historical fiction especially when it is combined with time travel. Seems to me Turtledove is a hack writer with no real knowledge or insight into the alternate history he writes. It's a really dumbed down version meant for people who do not know history.
Examples of really good alternate history, IMO FWIW, are Newt Gingritch's civil war trilogy, his Pearl harbor pair and his "1945" attack on the US nuclear program. The man knows history and what he writes is both plausible and interesting.
Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson wrote a pair of great alternate history of Rommel turning against Hitler/Himler called "Fox on the Rhine" and "Fox at The Front."
Some others I think would be worth your time are: The Plot Against America by Philip Roth 11/22/63 by Stephen King (This one surprised me)
Pavane by Keith Roberts
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Sept 30, 2021 16:04:00 GMT
See a lot of stories where Lee gets to become president and tries to end slavery, example being The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. Lordroel my friend, Turtledove has always been a disappointment to me. As you know, I really like "Good" alternate historical fiction especially when it is combined with time travel. Seems to me Turtledove is a hack writer with no real knowledge or insight into the alternate history he writes. It's a really dumbed down version meant for people who do not know history.
Examples of really good alternate history, IMO FWIW, are Newt Gingritch's civil war trilogy, his Pearl harbor pair and his "1945" attack on the US nuclear program. The man knows history and what he writes is both plausible and interesting.
Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson wrote a pair of great alternate history of Rommel turning against Hitler/Himler called "Fox on the Rhine" and "Fox at The Front."
Some others I think would be worth your time are: The Plot Against America by Philip Roth 11/22/63 by Stephen King (This one surprised me)
Pavane by Keith Roberts I have both the Pearl Harbor series, MacAthurs War and 1945 by Newt Gingritch, to bad we have no sequel to 1945 and the Pearl Harbor series. |
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Post by stevep on Oct 1, 2021 10:29:09 GMT
See a lot of stories where Lee gets to become president and tries to end slavery, example being The Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove. Lordroel my friend, Turtledove has always been a disappointment to me. As you know, I really like "Good" alternate historical fiction especially when it is combined with time travel. Seems to me Turtledove is a hack writer with no real knowledge or insight into the alternate history he writes. It's a really dumbed down version meant for people who do not know history.
Examples of really good alternate history, IMO FWIW, are Newt Gingritch's civil war trilogy, his Pearl harbor pair and his "1945" attack on the US nuclear program. The man knows history and what he writes is both plausible and interesting.
Douglas Niles and Michael Dobson wrote a pair of great alternate history of Rommel turning against Hitler/Himler called "Fox on the Rhine" and "Fox at The Front."
Some others I think would be worth your time are: The Plot Against America by Philip Roth 11/22/63 by Stephen King (This one surprised me)
Pavane by Keith Roberts
Had a quick look at some of those on Amazon. Didn't tell much but does sound like Gingritch's USCW trilogy would probably be more accurate than any of Turtledove's, for all his repulsive personality & politics. Doesn't really give any details about what happens in the Pearl Harbour story and very little in the 45. - Doubt, unless the US drastically cuts L-L to the USSR, Germany would dominate the continent if it didn't declare war on the US in Dec 41 but it would probably be significantly more powerful. Whether it would then attack a US that would probably have taken markedly heavier losses fighting Japan than OTL I don't know but after all Hitler is presumably still in charge so something so stupid could well occur.
Amazon also says very little about the Niles/Dobson books other than an SS coup replacing Hitler with Himmler but since it talks about a different attack in the west in winter 45 I can't see it really making a great difference given how totally outclassed the Germans were by then. Let alone then fighting, presumably with some success against the Soviets. Can you tell me any more please?
I read Pavane a long while back while still a teen and was surprised by the twist in the tail. However doubtful even then about the idea of copying history with some differences. Plus the suggestion of suppressing technology for so long then letting it all out in a rush would I suspect be more likely to prompt a nuclear war than prevent one. An interesting idea and decent characters plus the way one man's rejection by the women he loved prompts the changes that helps finally bring down the old order in Britain and starts the cascade was interesting.
Do agree however that while he's the most famous AH author he tends to be too simplistic and also despite massive changes in the world has so many things stay largely the same. Especially with so many historical characters turning up long after the POD and things like a WWI and WWII, albeit with different players at times still occurring in a similar time scan.
However getting rather off track here. 
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2021 10:31:59 GMT
Amazon also says very little about the Niles/Dobson books other than an SS coup replacing Hitler with Himmler but since it talks about a different attack in the west in winter 45 I can't see it really making a great difference given how totally outclassed the Germans were by then. Let alone then fighting, presumably with some success against the Soviets. Can you tell me any more please?
, these two books are the once i mentioned in the Fox on the Rhine/Fox at the Front universe thread i made once. |
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Post by stevep on Oct 1, 2021 10:39:08 GMT
Amazon also says very little about the Niles/Dobson books other than an SS coup replacing Hitler with Himmler but since it talks about a different attack in the west in winter 45 I can't see it really making a great difference given how totally outclassed the Germans were by then. Let alone then fighting, presumably with some success against the Soviets. Can you tell me any more please?
, these two books are the once i mentioned in the Fox on the Rhine/Fox at the Front universe thread i made once.
OK many thanks. Will have a look. 
Duh this was only a couple of months ago. Must admit that while more practical than I initially thought as Simon says it has significant flaws in logic. Rommel would be a decent figurehead for a new German government and military because of his behaviour in N Africa and general distaste for the Nazis but he wasn't a great strategic leader and also the way peace was made in the east and the Stalin breaks it is rather erratic. Plus I doubt, even with a POD a bit earlier than I was thinking the Germans could be that effective against allied bomber forces for instance.
PS Just seen your reply. Definitely there is worse out there. A lot worse in too many places.
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2021 10:44:25 GMT
OK many thanks. Will have a look. Only at you risk, me i like the books, they are a bit unrealistic but, what the heck, i have seen worst things out there. |
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Oct 1, 2021 11:49:18 GMT
OK many thanks. Will have a look.
Duh this was only a couple of months ago. Must admit that while more practical than I initially thought as Simon says it has significant flaws in logic. Rommel would be a decent figurehead for a new German government and military because of his behaviour in N Africa and general distaste for the Nazis but he wasn't a great strategic leader and also the way peace was made in the east and the Stalin breaks it is rather erratic. Plus I doubt, even with a POD a bit earlier than I was thinking the Germans could be that effective against allied bomber forces for instance.
PS Just seen your reply. Definitely there is worse out there. A lot worse in too many places.
Fox on the Rhine
Douglas Niles, Author, Michael Dobson, Author, Michael S. Dobson, Joint Author Forge $27.95 (400p) ISBN 978-0-312-86894-9
The second half of WWII takes a decidedly different path in this speculative historical novel, which picks up the action in 1944 with Nazi Germany on the verge of defeat. The first historical twist is the assassination of Hitler by a group of his own generals, but when G ring is also killed and the generals' attempt to assume power fails, Himmler takes the reins and quickly negotiates a peace treaty with the Russians. The second twist is the miraculous recovery of Rommel, who survives a near-fatal wound in North Africa and returns to the European theater to set the Allies back on their heels. With the war reduced to a single front, the Nazis have time to rebuild their shattered air force, giving Rommel the advantage he needs to press forward and capture critical Allied oil reserves. As the Desert Fox races to initiate a second blitzkrieg, American forces move to head him off before he can get to Antwerp, setting up a climactic final battle. The first-time authors have drawn on their background in war games to bring the tactical details to life (Niles designed the video game for Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising), but as a novel this book has several notable problems. Characters are introduced in rapid succession, with points of view ranging from foot soldiers to fighter pilots to generals, but many of the perspectives seem only marginally necessary. Moreover, the fast-paced action slows considerably once Himmler takes over and Rommel recovers, and for all the political machinations, the outcome of the war remains somewhat conservatively imagined. These issues aside, Niles and Dobson have crafted a vividly realistic study of a memorable time.
1945 best I could find. It's not much
At the start of the novel, the United States, having defeated the Empire of Japan, is in no mood to enter a new war, and Americans accept the fait accompli of German domination over most of Europe. A cold war seems in the offing, and even the British, with a German-dominated Europe at its doorstep, squander much of their resources on a colonial war in the former French Indochina.
US President Andrew Harrison (a fictional character) has a summit with Adolf Hitler at Reykjavík, Iceland. The meeting goes badly, both leaders sharply confront each other, and Hitler secretly decides to accelerate preparations for a surprise attack on both the United States and the United Kingdom. As part of the preparations, a beautiful German spy seduces and suborns the White House Chief of Staff and makes him a key German spy.
The book's protagonist, Lieutenant Commander James Martel, at the incipient Head of Naval Intelligence at the American embassy in Berlin, is one of the few who suspects the gathering storm by watching the new weapons displayed at the parade commemorating Germany's victory over the Soviet Union and encountering the well-known commando Otto Skorzeny, who is his main opponent throughout the book.
Skorzeny makes meticulous secret preparations for raids to destroy the American atomic bomb programs in Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Los Alamos National Laboratory. (During the book's war with Japan, the Manhattan Project was put on the back burner, making the 1945 United States far from already possessing a nuclear bomb.) The bulk of the book is devoted to Martel, back in the United States, getting a glimmering of the threatened attack and unsuccessfully trying to sound a warning.
The German raid takes place, and though the Germans are eventually beaten back, the raid causes great damage by killing key scientists and setting the American nuclear program behind Germany's. The Germans also seize the uranium mines in the Congo region while they launch all-out war against the United Kingdom.
The book ends with a cliffhanger. Erwin Rommel invades Scotland, the British face a desperate fight, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill imploring the Americans to "come quickly, this is much worse than 1940."
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 1, 2021 11:56:32 GMT
OK many thanks. Will have a look. Duh this was only a couple of months ago. Must admit that while more practical than I initially thought as Simon says it has significant flaws in logic. Rommel would be a decent figurehead for a new German government and military because of his behaviour in N Africa and general distaste for the Nazis but he wasn't a great strategic leader and also the way peace was made in the east and the Stalin breaks it is rather erratic. Plus I doubt, even with a POD a bit earlier than I was thinking the Germans could be that effective against allied bomber forces for instance. PS Just seen your reply. Definitely there is worse out there. A lot worse in too many places.
Fox on the Rhine
Douglas Niles, Author, Michael Dobson, Author, Michael S. Dobson, Joint Author Forge $27.95 (400p) ISBN 978-0-312-86894-9
The second half of WWII takes a decidedly different path in this speculative historical novel, which picks up the action in 1944 with Nazi Germany on the verge of defeat. The first historical twist is the assassination of Hitler by a group of his own generals, but when G ring is also killed and the generals' attempt to assume power fails, Himmler takes the reins and quickly negotiates a peace treaty with the Russians. The second twist is the miraculous recovery of Rommel, who survives a near-fatal wound in North Africa and returns to the European theater to set the Allies back on their heels. With the war reduced to a single front, the Nazis have time to rebuild their shattered air force, giving Rommel the advantage he needs to press forward and capture critical Allied oil reserves. As the Desert Fox races to initiate a second blitzkrieg, American forces move to head him off before he can get to Antwerp, setting up a climactic final battle. The first-time authors have drawn on their background in war games to bring the tactical details to life (Niles designed the video game for Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising), but as a novel this book has several notable problems. Characters are introduced in rapid succession, with points of view ranging from foot soldiers to fighter pilots to generals, but many of the perspectives seem only marginally necessary. Moreover, the fast-paced action slows considerably once Himmler takes over and Rommel recovers, and for all the political machinations, the outcome of the war remains somewhat conservatively imagined. These issues aside, Niles and Dobson have crafted a vividly realistic study of a memorable time.
1945 best I could find. It's not much
At the start of the novel, the United States, having defeated the Empire of Japan, is in no mood to enter a new war, and Americans accept the fait accompli of German domination over most of Europe. A cold war seems in the offing, and even the British, with a German-dominated Europe at its doorstep, squander much of their resources on a colonial war in the former French Indochina.
US President Andrew Harrison (a fictional character) has a summit with Adolf Hitler at Reykjavík, Iceland. The meeting goes badly, both leaders sharply confront each other, and Hitler secretly decides to accelerate preparations for a surprise attack on both the United States and the United Kingdom. As part of the preparations, a beautiful German spy seduces and suborns the White House Chief of Staff and makes him a key German spy.
The book's protagonist, Lieutenant Commander James Martel, at the incipient Head of Naval Intelligence at the American embassy in Berlin, is one of the few who suspects the gathering storm by watching the new weapons displayed at the parade commemorating Germany's victory over the Soviet Union and encountering the well-known commando Otto Skorzeny, who is his main opponent throughout the book.
Skorzeny makes meticulous secret preparations for raids to destroy the American atomic bomb programs in Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Los Alamos National Laboratory. (During the book's war with Japan, the Manhattan Project was put on the back burner, making the 1945 United States far from already possessing a nuclear bomb.) The bulk of the book is devoted to Martel, back in the United States, getting a glimmering of the threatened attack and unsuccessfully trying to sound a warning.
The German raid takes place, and though the Germans are eventually beaten back, the raid causes great damage by killing key scientists and setting the American nuclear program behind Germany's. The Germans also seize the uranium mines in the Congo region while they launch all-out war against the United Kingdom.
The book ends with a cliffhanger. Erwin Rommel invades Scotland, the British face a desperate fight, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill imploring the Americans to "come quickly, this is much worse than 1940."
To bad we never going it’s rumored sequel called Fortress Europe. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Oct 2, 2021 10:45:33 GMT
OK many thanks. Will have a look.
Duh this was only a couple of months ago. Must admit that while more practical than I initially thought as Simon says it has significant flaws in logic. Rommel would be a decent figurehead for a new German government and military because of his behaviour in N Africa and general distaste for the Nazis but he wasn't a great strategic leader and also the way peace was made in the east and the Stalin breaks it is rather erratic. Plus I doubt, even with a POD a bit earlier than I was thinking the Germans could be that effective against allied bomber forces for instance.
PS Just seen your reply. Definitely there is worse out there. A lot worse in too many places.
Fox on the Rhine
Douglas Niles, Author, Michael Dobson, Author, Michael S. Dobson, Joint Author Forge $27.95 (400p) ISBN 978-0-312-86894-9
The second half of WWII takes a decidedly different path in this speculative historical novel, which picks up the action in 1944 with Nazi Germany on the verge of defeat. The first historical twist is the assassination of Hitler by a group of his own generals, but when G ring is also killed and the generals' attempt to assume power fails, Himmler takes the reins and quickly negotiates a peace treaty with the Russians. The second twist is the miraculous recovery of Rommel, who survives a near-fatal wound in North Africa and returns to the European theater to set the Allies back on their heels. With the war reduced to a single front, the Nazis have time to rebuild their shattered air force, giving Rommel the advantage he needs to press forward and capture critical Allied oil reserves. As the Desert Fox races to initiate a second blitzkrieg, American forces move to head him off before he can get to Antwerp, setting up a climactic final battle. The first-time authors have drawn on their background in war games to bring the tactical details to life (Niles designed the video game for Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising), but as a novel this book has several notable problems. Characters are introduced in rapid succession, with points of view ranging from foot soldiers to fighter pilots to generals, but many of the perspectives seem only marginally necessary. Moreover, the fast-paced action slows considerably once Himmler takes over and Rommel recovers, and for all the political machinations, the outcome of the war remains somewhat conservatively imagined. These issues aside, Niles and Dobson have crafted a vividly realistic study of a memorable time.
1945 best I could find. It's not much
At the start of the novel, the United States, having defeated the Empire of Japan, is in no mood to enter a new war, and Americans accept the fait accompli of German domination over most of Europe. A cold war seems in the offing, and even the British, with a German-dominated Europe at its doorstep, squander much of their resources on a colonial war in the former French Indochina.
US President Andrew Harrison (a fictional character) has a summit with Adolf Hitler at Reykjavík, Iceland. The meeting goes badly, both leaders sharply confront each other, and Hitler secretly decides to accelerate preparations for a surprise attack on both the United States and the United Kingdom. As part of the preparations, a beautiful German spy seduces and suborns the White House Chief of Staff and makes him a key German spy.
The book's protagonist, Lieutenant Commander James Martel, at the incipient Head of Naval Intelligence at the American embassy in Berlin, is one of the few who suspects the gathering storm by watching the new weapons displayed at the parade commemorating Germany's victory over the Soviet Union and encountering the well-known commando Otto Skorzeny, who is his main opponent throughout the book.
Skorzeny makes meticulous secret preparations for raids to destroy the American atomic bomb programs in Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Los Alamos National Laboratory. (During the book's war with Japan, the Manhattan Project was put on the back burner, making the 1945 United States far from already possessing a nuclear bomb.) The bulk of the book is devoted to Martel, back in the United States, getting a glimmering of the threatened attack and unsuccessfully trying to sound a warning.
The German raid takes place, and though the Germans are eventually beaten back, the raid causes great damage by killing key scientists and setting the American nuclear program behind Germany's. The Germans also seize the uranium mines in the Congo region while they launch all-out war against the United Kingdom.
The book ends with a cliffhanger. Erwin Rommel invades Scotland, the British face a desperate fight, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill imploring the Americans to "come quickly, this is much worse than 1940."
Many thanks. I read the link to a previous discussion on this site so know a decent bit about the Rommel book.
On the 1945 as I say I have doubts that the Nazis would win against the Soviets given a Dec POD [assuming its simply Hitler decides not to dow the US after Pearl Harbour and Roosevelt can't get up the political will to dow Germany and than L-L continues.] The other point I would be doubtful of would be Britain being in that decent a position if Germany develops V weapons as OTL, especially the V-2's as while inaccurate their going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Plus depending on how both sides allocate resources the Battle of the Atlantic could be a lot tighter in the longer run.
Definitely could see a US that's avoided the big war not being too eager for war with Germany as, fighting only against Japan their likely to win that some time earlier but its probably going to be a hell of a lot costlier as with no time for nukes or B-29 fire-bombings its likely to mean an invasion of Japan which, while probably not as expensive as some feared its going to be bloody.
Britain would have to be in a very bad way for any invasion of the country to be a realistic possibility given the probable land and air defences and limited German naval/amphibious capacity. However its the sort of thing that an author would put in for dramatic impact. The big danger as I say would be bombardment and possibly blockade. Although a lot would depend on what happened elsewhere of course which might cause a serious drain on British/Commonwealth resources.
However definitely a decent idea, although with the emphasis on the personal duel between Martel and Skorzeny I suspect that's more for book sales than the alternative history market. Which unfortunately only makes sense for a commercial project as there's a much bigger market for dramatic war fiction than for AH.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Oct 2, 2021 11:45:35 GMT
Steve here is a pretty good synopses
Fox on the Rhine
Douglas Niles, Author, Michael Dobson, Author, Michael S. Dobson, Joint Author Forge $27.95 (400p) ISBN 978-0-312-86894-9
The second half of WWII takes a decidedly different path in this speculative historical novel, which picks up the action in 1944 with Nazi Germany on the verge of defeat. The first historical twist is the assassination of Hitler by a group of his own generals, but when G ring is also killed and the generals' attempt to assume power fails, Himmler takes the reins and quickly negotiates a peace treaty with the Russians. The second twist is the miraculous recovery of Rommel, who survives a near-fatal wound in North Africa and returns to the European theater to set the Allies back on their heels. With the war reduced to a single front, the Nazis have time to rebuild their shattered air force, giving Rommel the advantage he needs to press forward and capture critical Allied oil reserves. As the Desert Fox races to initiate a second blitzkrieg, American forces move to head him off before he can get to Antwerp, setting up a climactic final battle. The first-time authors have drawn on their background in war games to bring the tactical details to life (Niles designed the video game for Tom Clancy's Red Storm Rising), but as a novel this book has several notable problems. Characters are introduced in rapid succession, with points of view ranging from foot soldiers to fighter pilots to generals, but many of the perspectives seem only marginally necessary. Moreover, the fast-paced action slows considerably once Himmler takes over and Rommel recovers, and for all the political machinations, the outcome of the war remains somewhat conservatively imagined. These issues aside, Niles and Dobson have crafted a vividly realistic study of a memorable time.
1945 best I could find. It's not much
At the start of the novel, the United States, having defeated the Empire of Japan, is in no mood to enter a new war, and Americans accept the fait accompli of German domination over most of Europe. A cold war seems in the offing, and even the British, with a German-dominated Europe at its doorstep, squander much of their resources on a colonial war in the former French Indochina.
US President Andrew Harrison (a fictional character) has a summit with Adolf Hitler at Reykjavík, Iceland. The meeting goes badly, both leaders sharply confront each other, and Hitler secretly decides to accelerate preparations for a surprise attack on both the United States and the United Kingdom. As part of the preparations, a beautiful German spy seduces and suborns the White House Chief of Staff and makes him a key German spy.
The book's protagonist, Lieutenant Commander James Martel, at the incipient Head of Naval Intelligence at the American embassy in Berlin, is one of the few who suspects the gathering storm by watching the new weapons displayed at the parade commemorating Germany's victory over the Soviet Union and encountering the well-known commando Otto Skorzeny, who is his main opponent throughout the book.
Skorzeny makes meticulous secret preparations for raids to destroy the American atomic bomb programs in Oak Ridge National Laboratory and Los Alamos National Laboratory. (During the book's war with Japan, the Manhattan Project was put on the back burner, making the 1945 United States far from already possessing a nuclear bomb.) The bulk of the book is devoted to Martel, back in the United States, getting a glimmering of the threatened attack and unsuccessfully trying to sound a warning.
The German raid takes place, and though the Germans are eventually beaten back, the raid causes great damage by killing key scientists and setting the American nuclear program behind Germany's. The Germans also seize the uranium mines in the Congo region while they launch all-out war against the United Kingdom.
The book ends with a cliffhanger. Erwin Rommel invades Scotland, the British face a desperate fight, and British Prime Minister Winston Churchill imploring the Americans to "come quickly, this is much worse than 1940."
Many thanks. I read the link to a previous discussion on this site so know a decent bit about the Rommel book. On the 1945 as I say I have doubts that the Nazis would win against the Soviets given a Dec POD [assuming its simply Hitler decides not to dow the US after Pearl Harbour and Roosevelt can't get up the political will to dow Germany and than L-L continues.] The other point I would be doubtful of would be Britain being in that decent a position if Germany develops V weapons as OTL, especially the V-2's as while inaccurate their going to do a hell of a lot of damage. Plus depending on how both sides allocate resources the Battle of the Atlantic could be a lot tighter in the longer run. Definitely could see a US that's avoided the big war not being too eager for war with Germany as, fighting only against Japan their likely to win that some time earlier but its probably going to be a hell of a lot costlier as with no time for nukes or B-29 fire-bombings its likely to mean an invasion of Japan which, while probably not as expensive as some feared its going to be bloody. Britain would have to be in a very bad way for any invasion of the country to be a realistic possibility given the probable land and air defences and limited German naval/amphibious capacity. However its the sort of thing that an author would put in for dramatic impact. The big danger as I say would be bombardment and possibly blockade. Although a lot would depend on what happened elsewhere of course which might cause a serious drain on British/Commonwealth resources. However definitely a decent idea, although with the emphasis on the personal duel between Martel and Skorzeny I suspect that's more for book sales than the alternative history market. Which unfortunately only makes sense for a commercial project as there's a much bigger market for dramatic war fiction than for AH.
Steve
, in the novel 1945, Hitler gets into a plain crash on December 6th 1941 and taking a part of the novel this happens: 'Hitler would take care of the problem for him. Hitler had spent several weeks in a coma, during which time a triumvirate composed of Göring, Goebbels, and Haider had taken charge. Realizing that they were on the edge of disaster in Russia, far from declaring war on the USA, the three immediately declared an end to unrestricted submarine warfare in the Atlantic, thereby blocking Roosevelt's hope for a final provocation. Next they had pulled off 'a masterful strategic withdrawal along the entire Russia front, falling back before the offensive of the Russian Siberian divisions. Had the German army followed the dark romanticism of Hitler's vision and never relinquished an inch of conquered territory, it was generally agreed, the Wehrmacht would have pretty much ceased to exist in the East. Instead, the Russians wound up exhausted and overextended, and the Nazi offensive was renewed in the spring. Meanwhile America, Russia's only real hope, had become fully committed in the Pacific. Before Hitler had recovered enough to resume power, the ruling triumvirate had managed to ameliorate and block the worst of Himmler's SS atrocities as well, committing the Reich to a quasi-independent Ukraine. Result: thirty-nine divisions of Ukrainian and anti-Communist Russians in the Nazi ranks. It did not matter that after the war the SS gained back its power in the eastern occupied lands. The war by then was already won. The result was inevitable. In '43 Russia threw in the towel,'. |
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to stand for abolition. All the BS about states rights was, at it's heart the right to own other human beings. 
