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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Aug 6, 2021 19:09:14 GMT
As a gamer who enjoys Assassin's creed games I of course picked up Assassin's Creed Valhalla and one of the first things you see as a modern day assassin is a Viking body somewhere in the United States. So what are the odds of Vinland surviving and making a nation in the new world? This is something I made as a idea of what I mean. Lets say this is post 1492 so the new world is found and people start moving over.
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1bigrich
Sub-lieutenant
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Post by 1bigrich on Aug 9, 2021 0:02:33 GMT
Several thoughts:
As I recall from medieval history, there was a warming period in the Middle Ages. The ability to grow grapes for wine moved as far north as Scotland.
So let's say the Vikings on North America, modern-day Newfoundland and/or Labrador and/or Nova Scotia, coincide with this warming period.
I would say the first key to success would be stay in touch with Europe after things cool down again. This lead to the abandonment of Greenland, but 'Vinland' might be more habitable. As an aside, we know that Europe was aware of the Greenland colony. Vatican records have a letter from the Bishop of Trondheim asking the Pope if he had to go Greenland to collect the Tithe each year (the Pope said 'yes', BTW). Keeping in touch with developments in Europe, especially technological, will be important.
So the Vinland colony needs to be able to farm, fish, fell timber, build boats, forge metals, etc. That might require a decent sized population, so I would say a second ingredient might be a large emigration of people from Norway, Danelaw in the UK, Ireland, Iceland and Greenland to the Vinland colony.
Third, I would think you might need a friendlier native population, say something closer to what the Pilgrims encountered in the Massachusetts Bay colony, or the initial settlement at Roanoke. Trading with the native population, say metal tools for pelts that could be traded in Europe for textiles and other goods could set up an economy that enables continued contact with Europe.
My thoughts,
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Aug 9, 2021 1:58:53 GMT
Several thoughts: As I recall from medieval history, there was a warming period in the Middle Ages. The ability to grow grapes for wine moved as far north as Scotland. So let's say the Vikings on North America, modern-day Newfoundland and/or Labrador and/or Nova Scotia, coincide with this warming period. I would say the first key to success would be stay in touch with Europe after things cool down again. This lead to the abandonment of Greenland, but 'Vinland' might be more habitable. As an aside, we know that Europe was aware of the Greenland colony. Vatican records have a letter from the Bishop of Trondheim asking the Pope if he had to go Greenland to collect the Tithe each year (the Pope said 'yes', BTW). Keeping in touch with developments in Europe, especially technological, will be important. So the Vinland colony needs to be able to farm, fish, fell timber, build boats, forge metals, etc. That might require a decent sized population, so I would say a second ingredient might be a large emigration of people from Norway, Danelaw in the UK, Ireland, Iceland and Greenland to the Vinland colony. Third, I would think you might need a friendlier native population, say something closer to what the Pilgrims encountered in the Massachusetts Bay colony, or the initial settlement at Roanoke. Trading with the native population, say metal tools for pelts that could be traded in Europe for textiles and other goods could set up an economy that enables continued contact with Europe. My thoughts, I agree if the Vikings can set up their colonies in modern-day Newfoundland/Labrador and Nova Scotia in the 400 years from around 900 to the 1300s they would have a decent chance of surviving with the above suggestions. Oh and in case anybody wishes to know more about this warming period it was called Medieval Warm Period. This link covers it for anybody who has the time to read up on this. www.britannica.com/science/medieval-warm-period.
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stevep
Fleet admiral
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Post by stevep on Aug 9, 2021 16:46:38 GMT
Several thoughts: As I recall from medieval history, there was a warming period in the Middle Ages. The ability to grow grapes for wine moved as far north as Scotland. So let's say the Vikings on North America, modern-day Newfoundland and/or Labrador and/or Nova Scotia, coincide with this warming period. I would say the first key to success would be stay in touch with Europe after things cool down again. This lead to the abandonment of Greenland, but 'Vinland' might be more habitable. As an aside, we know that Europe was aware of the Greenland colony. Vatican records have a letter from the Bishop of Trondheim asking the Pope if he had to go Greenland to collect the Tithe each year (the Pope said 'yes', BTW). Keeping in touch with developments in Europe, especially technological, will be important. So the Vinland colony needs to be able to farm, fish, fell timber, build boats, forge metals, etc. That might require a decent sized population, so I would say a second ingredient might be a large emigration of people from Norway, Danelaw in the UK, Ireland, Iceland and Greenland to the Vinland colony. Third, I would think you might need a friendlier native population, say something closer to what the Pilgrims encountered in the Massachusetts Bay colony, or the initial settlement at Roanoke. Trading with the native population, say metal tools for pelts that could be traded in Europe for textiles and other goods could set up an economy that enables continued contact with Europe. My thoughts,
Was it the natives that were hostile or the Norse? From what little I've read about it, it seemed more like the Vikings were responsible for most of the violence. Also I have read - the Jarad Diamond book Collapse - that a major reason for the failure of the Vikings in Greenland was that they refused to adjust to the worsening environment as the climate moved from the warm period to the little ice age. Instead of adjusting and taking ideas from say the Eskimos they kept to a very European style of living which was totally inappropriate to their circumstances. Also seem to have taken up some strange ideas with an apparent rejection of the idea of eating fish -despite being not far from one of the richest fisheries in the world. That suggests that the settlers later on didn't take the wisest steps and possibly similarly earlier on?
Steve
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Post by halferking on Aug 14, 2021 9:56:30 GMT
Vinland was abandoned, it seems, for three reasons,
1.there was no value in establishing a viable colony: the land did not provide the Norsemen with anything they could not find back home.
2.there weren’t enough people to establish a viable colony: it is thought that Greenland the nearest colony (nearly 2,000 miles away) only had around 500 people.
3.the land was already occupied: the native population vastly outnumbered the meagre numbers of Norse settlers.
So it seems to me that in order to establish a viable community they would have to come in larger numbers, become self-sufficient i.e., forget about returning home and try their best to behave.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Aug 14, 2021 10:47:30 GMT
Vinland was abandoned, it seems, for three reasons, 1.there was no value in establishing a viable colony: the land did not provide the Norsemen with anything they could not find back home. 2.there weren’t enough people to establish a viable colony: it is thought that Greenland the nearest colony (nearly 2,000 miles away) only had around 500 people. 3.the land was already occupied: the native population vastly outnumbered the meagre numbers of Norse settlers. So it seems to me that in order to establish a viable community they would have to come in larger numbers, become self-sufficient i.e., forget about returning home and try their best to behave. Is there any way to have a bigger push by them to establish new colonies in the New World? Looking at when Vinland was set up it seems it was sometime in the 11th century after Leif Erikson landed there around the year 1000. So was there any wars that may have made more people to sail westwards and try to make a living in the new lands? I have read a few few stories about this and it was a fairly big part in why I'm asking this. I think it would be a fascinating question to envision a world in which the Vikings survived, at least in some sense up to 1492. If you'll think such a thing is possible I guess we could see if it could become something bigger then a simply what-if post. But so far I have no plans on making it into anything past what it is now.
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Post by halferking on Aug 14, 2021 13:22:58 GMT
Vinland was abandoned, it seems, for three reasons, 1.there was no value in establishing a viable colony: the land did not provide the Norsemen with anything they could not find back home. 2.there weren’t enough people to establish a viable colony: it is thought that Greenland the nearest colony (nearly 2,000 miles away) only had around 500 people. 3.the land was already occupied: the native population vastly outnumbered the meagre numbers of Norse settlers. So it seems to me that in order to establish a viable community they would have to come in larger numbers, become self-sufficient i.e., forget about returning home and try their best to behave. Is there any way to have a bigger push by them to establish new colonies in the New World? Looking at when Vinland was set up it seems it was sometime in the 11th century after Leif Erikson landed there around the year 1000. So was there any wars that may have made more people to sail westwards and try to make a living in the new lands? I have read a few few stories about this and it was a fairly big part in why I'm asking this. I think it would be a fascinating question to envision a world in which the Vikings survived, at least in some sense up to 1492. If you'll think such a thing is possible I guess we could see if it could become something bigger then a simply what-if post. But so far I have no plans on making it into anything past what it is now. Although evidence is sketchy at best the Norse settlements in Greenland reached a peak population of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 and it seems the last written document from Greenland settlements dates to c. 1408 AD and details the marriage of Thorstein Olafsson and Sigrid Björnsdóttirin and there is nothing in this document that would suggest that the settlements were under stress or facing oblivion so Historians can only guess as to why the Greenland Norsemen simply 'vanished'. I think it was you who mentioned the Medieval Warming Period. It was this climatic conditions that enabled the Norsemen to establish a successful community on Greenland. They simply picked their lives up in Norway and then put them down in eastern and southern shores of Greenland. Evidence suggests that Norse folk had managed to create a viable agricultural practices that lead to the increase in population. In fact the environment was just right for them to grow barley and other crops that could be used in making beer and bread. This was not to last... The decline in Norse civilisation in Greenland is gradual and seems to be down to climate change which reduced the growing seasons, which in turn meant the Norse folk found it difficult to cultivate crops. In 1257 a cataclysmic event took place over 8,000 miles away on the other side of the world which would not only have a profound climatic affect on Greenland but Europe as a whole is thought to have caused famine and combined with disease Humanity was in rough shape. The Greenlander Norse folk didn't appear to be able to adapt like the Inuit who looked to the seas rather than the land and as of 1408 no-one had heard of them. It is feasible that perhaps in an attempt to fend off extinction the Norse folk may have made the move to North America. I would also like to add that when I went to Peru we visited an 'Inca' site Ollantytambo in the Sacred Valley. Our local guide drew our attention to a mountain side. Now at the top to the left of the ruins on this mountain was a profile of Wiracocha, a Quechua God. She then told us to look at the same mountain but this time concentrate on the central portion straight in front of us and a strange face started to appeared. I say strange because this face has a beard... Quechua men don't grow beards. She told us that there was a story of strangers being found on the coast of Peru. They were not like the native population and these strangers claimed to have been blown of course by a storm. The strangers and the locals got on fine and when their ships were repaired the strangers returned to the ocean and were never seen again. But before they left they promised the locals that they would return one day. It is thought (and there is zero evidence for this but it's a story so bare with me) that these strangers could have been Vikings...
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Aug 15, 2021 5:19:09 GMT
Is there any way to have a bigger push by them to establish new colonies in the New World? Looking at when Vinland was set up it seems it was sometime in the 11th century after Leif Erikson landed there around the year 1000. So was there any wars that may have made more people to sail westwards and try to make a living in the new lands? I have read a few few stories about this and it was a fairly big part in why I'm asking this. I think it would be a fascinating question to envision a world in which the Vikings survived, at least in some sense up to 1492. If you'll think such a thing is possible I guess we could see if it could become something bigger then a simply what-if post. But so far I have no plans on making it into anything past what it is now. Although evidence is sketchy at best the Norse settlements in Greenland reached a peak population of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 and it seems the last written document from Greenland settlements dates to c. 1408 AD and details the marriage of Thorstein Olafsson and Sigrid Björnsdóttirin and there is nothing in this document that would suggest that the settlements were under stress or facing oblivion so Historians can only guess as to why the Greenland Norsemen simply 'vanished'. I think it was you who mentioned the Medieval Warming Period. It was this climatic conditions that enabled the Norsemen to establish a successful community on Greenland. They simply picked their lives up in Norway and then put them down in eastern and southern shores of Greenland. Evidence suggests that Norse folk had managed to create a viable agricultural practices that lead to the increase in population. In fact the environment was just right for them to grow barley and other crops that could be used in making beer and bread. This was not to last... The decline in Norse civilization in Greenland is gradual and seems to be down to climate change which reduced the growing seasons, which in turn meant the Norse folk found it difficult to cultivate crops. In 1257 a cataclysmic event took place over 8,000 miles away on the other side of the world which would not only have a profound climatic affect on Greenland but Europe as a whole is thought to have caused famine and combined with disease Humanity was in rough shape. The Greenlander Norse folk didn't appear to be able to adapt like the Inuit who looked to the seas rather than the land and as of 1408 no-one had heard of them. It is feasible that perhaps in an attempt to fend off extinction the Norse folk may have made the move to North America. I would also like to add that when I went to Peru we visited an 'Inca' site Ollantytambo in the Sacred Valley. Our local guide drew our attention to a mountain side. Now at the top to the left of the ruins on this mountain was a profile of Wiracocha, a Quechua God. She then told us to look at the same mountain but this time concentrate on the central portion straight in front of us and a strange face started to appear. I say strange because this face has a beard... Quechua men don't grow beards. She told us that there was a story of strangers being found on the coast of Peru. They were not like the native population and these strangers claimed to have been blown of course by a storm. The strangers and the locals got on fine and when their ships were repaired the strangers returned to the ocean and were never seen again. But before they left they promised the locals that they would return one day. It is thought (and there is zero evidence for this but it's a story so bare with me) that these strangers could have been Vikings... No it wasn't me who Medieval Warming Period. I however give a link to what it was but somebody else talked about it. As for the possible Vikings thing that would be news to me as I didn't know they would have sailed that far south.
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Post by halferking on Aug 15, 2021 11:46:45 GMT
Although evidence is sketchy at best the Norse settlements in Greenland reached a peak population of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 and it seems the last written document from Greenland settlements dates to c. 1408 AD and details the marriage of Thorstein Olafsson and Sigrid Björnsdóttirin and there is nothing in this document that would suggest that the settlements were under stress or facing oblivion so Historians can only guess as to why the Greenland Norsemen simply 'vanished'. I think it was you who mentioned the Medieval Warming Period. It was this climatic conditions that enabled the Norsemen to establish a successful community on Greenland. They simply picked their lives up in Norway and then put them down in eastern and southern shores of Greenland. Evidence suggests that Norse folk had managed to create a viable agricultural practices that lead to the increase in population. In fact the environment was just right for them to grow barley and other crops that could be used in making beer and bread. This was not to last... The decline in Norse civilization in Greenland is gradual and seems to be down to climate change which reduced the growing seasons, which in turn meant the Norse folk found it difficult to cultivate crops. In 1257 a cataclysmic event took place over 8,000 miles away on the other side of the world which would not only have a profound climatic affect on Greenland but Europe as a whole is thought to have caused famine and combined with disease Humanity was in rough shape. The Greenlander Norse folk didn't appear to be able to adapt like the Inuit who looked to the seas rather than the land and as of 1408 no-one had heard of them. It is feasible that perhaps in an attempt to fend off extinction the Norse folk may have made the move to North America. I would also like to add that when I went to Peru we visited an 'Inca' site Ollantytambo in the Sacred Valley. Our local guide drew our attention to a mountain side. Now at the top to the left of the ruins on this mountain was a profile of Wiracocha, a Quechua God. She then told us to look at the same mountain but this time concentrate on the central portion straight in front of us and a strange face started to appear. I say strange because this face has a beard... Quechua men don't grow beards. She told us that there was a story of strangers being found on the coast of Peru. They were not like the native population and these strangers claimed to have been blown of course by a storm. The strangers and the locals got on fine and when their ships were repaired the strangers returned to the ocean and were never seen again. But before they left they promised the locals that they would return one day. It is thought (and there is zero evidence for this but it's a story so bare with me) that these strangers could have been Vikings... No it wasn't me who Medieval Warming Period. I however give a link to what it was but somebody else talked about it. As for the possible Vikings thing that would be news to me as I didn't know they would have sailed that far south. I would hazard a guess that it is a story that is probably told to gringos... But in all honesty it did look Northern European.
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Post by halferking on Aug 17, 2021 19:12:54 GMT
Although evidence is sketchy at best the Norse settlements in Greenland reached a peak population of anywhere between 2,000 and 10,000 and it seems the last written document from Greenland settlements dates to c. 1408 AD and details the marriage of Thorstein Olafsson and Sigrid Björnsdóttirin and there is nothing in this document that would suggest that the settlements were under stress or facing oblivion so Historians can only guess as to why the Greenland Norsemen simply 'vanished'. I think it was you who mentioned the Medieval Warming Period. It was this climatic conditions that enabled the Norsemen to establish a successful community on Greenland. They simply picked their lives up in Norway and then put them down in eastern and southern shores of Greenland. Evidence suggests that Norse folk had managed to create a viable agricultural practices that lead to the increase in population. In fact the environment was just right for them to grow barley and other crops that could be used in making beer and bread. This was not to last... The decline in Norse civilization in Greenland is gradual and seems to be down to climate change which reduced the growing seasons, which in turn meant the Norse folk found it difficult to cultivate crops. In 1257 a cataclysmic event took place over 8,000 miles away on the other side of the world which would not only have a profound climatic affect on Greenland but Europe as a whole is thought to have caused famine and combined with disease Humanity was in rough shape. The Greenlander Norse folk didn't appear to be able to adapt like the Inuit who looked to the seas rather than the land and as of 1408 no-one had heard of them. It is feasible that perhaps in an attempt to fend off extinction the Norse folk may have made the move to North America. I would also like to add that when I went to Peru we visited an 'Inca' site Ollantytambo in the Sacred Valley. Our local guide drew our attention to a mountain side. Now at the top to the left of the ruins on this mountain was a profile of Wiracocha, a Quechua God. She then told us to look at the same mountain but this time concentrate on the central portion straight in front of us and a strange face started to appear. I say strange because this face has a beard... Quechua men don't grow beards. She told us that there was a story of strangers being found on the coast of Peru. They were not like the native population and these strangers claimed to have been blown of course by a storm. The strangers and the locals got on fine and when their ships were repaired the strangers returned to the ocean and were never seen again. But before they left they promised the locals that they would return one day. It is thought (and there is zero evidence for this but it's a story so bare with me) that these strangers could have been Vikings... No it wasn't me who Medieval Warming Period. I however give a link to what it was but somebody else talked about it. As for the possible Vikings thing that would be news to me as I didn't know they would have sailed that far south. This is what I mean by the face (my photo of my photo)
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jjohnson
Chief petty officer
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Post by jjohnson on Aug 28, 2021 21:08:22 GMT
If you want a surviving Norse colony, I'd say between 900 and 940 AD, they see that the waters of Newfoundland are teeming with fish, so the Norse come to see what else is over there.
Between 915 and 1015, several thousand Norse come to eastern Canada, establishing villages at St Johns NFL, Sydney NS, and Souris PEI, and a few other places, with a few hundred people in each village. Their technology is not really too far above that of the natives, but they tend to trade peacefully when they encounter the Indians. Some Norse find coal at Sydney Mines, and figure out it can be burned for warmth instead of wood, and they begin mining it and shipping it to other villages, establishing an increase in trade and developing a more common culture for Vinland, establishing ties between the villages.
Ships sail back to northern Britain, Iceland, Greenland, and the Scandinavian countries of Europe with tales of 'burning black rock' (coal), fish, and other things easily found in the far west, bringing an increase in the number of people sailing for the far west. By 1000, there are about 10,000 people, including some Gaelic speakers and late Old English speakers, and Old German speakers. They bring metal working to the western hemisphere, and their metal armor helps them fend off the occasional Indian raids, crossbows and long bows being better made and more accurate than those of the natives.
From 1000 to 1100, the ships continued east and west, while the English focused on the Norman conquerors, and the continent by and large forgot about the far west. The population grew, and while it didn't really offer too much in the north different from Europe, the temptation of freedom from close crown oversight, milder climate, and land drew men and women to the new lands. Some venturing far south found grapes and a root vegetable called a potato, that soon became a staple of their diet.
By 1400, the warming ended, cutting off ships coming from Europe, but there were about 55,000 settlers. With the ocean currents, the climate was milder than Europe, even with the colder weather. By the time the English came to Newfoundland, they found villages of Norse with a unique dialect similar to that of Iceland, still written in an older Latin alphabet and often in runes. Roads, stone and wooden houses, and plenty of villages with a European population of around 255,000 between Newfoundland, St John Island, Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia, and Anticosti Island. The French attempted settling Acadia west of the existing settlements, while the English claimed and conquered Newfoundland, letting the settlers alone, just requiring them to submit to the English crown.
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575
Captain
There is no Purgatory for warcriminals - they go directly to Hell!
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Post by 575 on Sept 18, 2021 20:18:47 GMT
There is a possible that the Norse - Eric the Red might go slightly west and end up in Markland or Vinland. Thus the Greenland colony becomes the American one of 2-3000 peoples. Or for some reason upon the discovery of the lands in the west sufficient Norse decide to find a better future there? Vinland/Markland did supply the Greenland Norse with timbers and bog iron. Hunting expedition was sent to Baffin Land each summer with foundations of Norse houses and remnants of metalworking found. The Scandinavians of Viking age did carry smallpox but not to North America. Seems the North Americans were just lucky or would they have been able to survive in sufficient numbers should smallpox have been introduced by ca. 1000 AD when the Europeans show up some 500 years later? The Norse in Greenland did hunt and eat seal and some fish and survived climate deterioration for 200 years.
With some small twist of fate the Norse may settle in eastern North America around 990 with smallpox helping them survive the indigenous peoples overwhelming numbers. The problem faced regarding the natives was the Norse decision not to trade metal weapons which the Americans of course wanted. Another problem was offering milk/skyr to the natives who were lactose-intolerant.
Years back when not knowing of the smallpox possible (only surface 2020) I did a TL on AH.com just with this as the gamechanger. It really should be a WI.
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