Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 30, 2021 21:11:16 GMT
By normal standards, the premises we like to discuss in AH circles can seem bemusing and strange. The American Revolution failing, the Central Powers winning World War I, even an inverted Cold War scenario or two where America and Russia play completely “swapped” roles. Certainly, such worlds would be quite different, with denizens of those TLs probably thinking the same of us.
And then, there are PoDs that’d take the human story in a completely different direction than anything close to our contemporary frame of reference—no Industrial Revolution, a surviving Roman Republic, or other species of humans continuing to live alongside Homo sapiens (rather than go extinct, as IOTL). Despite that, the sheer oddness of these alternate worlds make for particularly interesting counterfactuals, which I’d very much like to see more of. Having said that, what PoDs have the potential to create an unrecognizable world?
Due to how much time the cumulative ripple effects require to compound, I imagine that the bulk of cases that’d fit the bill have roots long before 1900. However, if anyone here really wants to, they can share whatever post-1900 PoDs they come up with, as long as they successfully manage to make OTL observers blink incomprehensibly when glancing at it and/or put a super bizarre spin on any similarities with our twentieth century that crop up (i.e. significant Marxist movements still gaining traction, though they certainly don't have to resemble their OTL path to prominence).
With that out of the way, have at thee!
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 30, 2021 21:39:52 GMT
By normal standards, the premises we like to discuss in AH circles can seem bemusing and strange. The American Revolution failing, the Central Powers winning World War I, even an inverted Cold War scenario or two where America and Russia play completely “swapped” roles. Certainly, such worlds would be quite different, with denizens of those TLs probably thinking the same of us. And then, there are PoDs that’d take the human story in a completely different direction than anything close to our contemporary frame of reference—no Industrial Revolution, a surviving Roman Republic, or other species of humans continuing to live alongside Homo sapiens (rather than go extinct, as IOTL). Despite that, the sheer oddness of these alternate worlds make for particularly interesting counterfactuals, which I’d very much like to see more of. Having said that, what PoDs have the potential to create an unrecognizable world? Due to how much time the cumulative ripple effects require to compound, I imagine that the bulk of cases that’d fit the bill have roots long before 1900. However, if anyone here really wants to, they can share whatever post-1900 PoDs they come up with, as long as they successfully manage to make OTL observers blink incomprehensibly when glancing at it and/or put a super bizarre spin on any similarities with our twentieth century that crop up (i.e. significant Marxist movements still gaining traction, though they certainly don't have to resemble their OTL path to prominence). With that out of the way, have at thee! Thank you in advance, Zyobot One idea is that there isn't an ice age or that the dominant species of human isn't homo sapiens. Another idea could be that Rome never becomes a superpower. You could have the Greeks never unity and thus everything we know about the western world never happens.
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Post by halferking on Jul 31, 2021 11:30:51 GMT
I did some research and put together a scenarios for PODs pre-1900 (as with all thing alternate timeline I'm sure some of these ideas have been thought of before...)
You won’t feel a little prick…
1796; Edward Jenner is credited with being the first to discover a safe way to immunise an individual. He earned his Medical Degree at St Andrew’s and although not widely published at the time Jenner theorised about the cause of Angina Pectoris and this led to a greater understanding of the role coronary arteries have in heart disease.
Before vaccines the world relied on a process called variolation. This was used in the treatment of smallpox and involved blowing smallpox scabs up someone’s nose. It could also be applied to open wounds. This was effective but not without risk as the patient could bleed out the variolation material and sometimes failed to prevent against a second attack.
Without Dr Edward Jenner vaccination (including antivenom) may not exist. Curable illnesses such as Polio and Cholera may still be life threatening. We could live in a COVID like world of masks, social distancing, sanitisation and rationing. The Age of Ignorance
The Enlightenment movement fails to gain traction. The Enlightenment is credited with a transformational leap for humanity in terms education, medicine and representative democracy. It cast the cleansing light of thought over a dark world of tyranny. But what if it never happened…
Locke, one of the great Thinkers of the Enlightenment, developed the idea of ‘natural rights’ – all men derive their rights from God, and they were entitled to Life, Liberty and Property – concepts that the Founding Fathers enshrined in the Constitution of the United States of America... Without these concepts perhaps there would be no 1812 War or French Revolution.
The Church would still hold sway and science would be considered heretical thinking and the world would be governed by Devine Right of Kings rather than the Rule of Man.
Operating System failed to load
The Industrial Revolution, 1760s, started in Great Britain and pretty much the foundation for every modern convenience the 21st century has to offer. It led to great and sudden social upheaval to the betterment of the human condition with the advent of primitive unionism, a separation of of agriculture and industry. It also led to an increase in exploitation, slavery, pollution, child labour and the rise of a political philosophy known as Communism to fight the injustices of the Industrial Revolution. What would happen if we did not have the Industrial Revolution…?
We would probably live in a greener world as agricultural practices and industries would remain local rather than on a global scale. There would be no rise in mega cities as people would not flock to them for work. There maybe a form of feudalism. No capitalism. Amish on steroids…
It's cold in here put some more kindling on the fire…
John, King of England, refuses to sign the Magna Carta. This single document is the heart of the British judicial system and that of the Common Law systems of many countries around the world for example the United States. Magna Carta served to limit the King’s power and brought about the principle of ‘innocent until proven guilty’. The document was also credited with the British Bill of Rights 1689 and the American Bill of Rights 1791… The British Bill of Rights granted people right to bear arms and protection from excessive bail, harsh, cruel punishment etc. Without it we could see a more authoritarian society – people being rounded up and incarcerated indefinitely. Show trials. Dictators. Similar to Soviet Union or China etc. but in Britain, the US and British Empire.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 31, 2021 11:46:39 GMT
By normal standards, the premises we like to discuss in AH circles can seem bemusing and strange. The American Revolution failing, the Central Powers winning World War I, even an inverted Cold War scenario or two where America and Russia play completely “swapped” roles. Certainly, such worlds would be quite different, with denizens of those TLs probably thinking the same of us. And then, there are PoDs that’d take the human story in a completely different direction than anything close to our contemporary frame of reference—no Industrial Revolution, a surviving Roman Republic, or other species of humans continuing to live alongside Homo sapiens (rather than go extinct, as IOTL). Despite that, the sheer oddness of these alternate worlds make for particularly interesting counterfactuals, which I’d very much like to see more of. Having said that, what PoDs have the potential to create an unrecognizable world? Due to how much time the cumulative ripple effects require to compound, I imagine that the bulk of cases that’d fit the bill have roots long before 1900. However, if anyone here really wants to, they can share whatever post-1900 PoDs they come up with, as long as they successfully manage to make OTL observers blink incomprehensibly when glancing at it and/or put a super bizarre spin on any similarities with our twentieth century that crop up (i.e. significant Marxist movements still gaining traction, though they certainly don't have to resemble their OTL path to prominence). With that out of the way, have at thee! Thank you in advance, Zyobot One idea is that there isn't an ice age or that the dominant species of human isn't homo sapiens. Another idea could be that Rome never becomes a superpower. You could have the Greeks never unity and thus everything we know about the western world never happens.
Possibly the easiest way for that might be if either Darius or Xerxes succeed in their conquest attempts. If so and Greek culture is basically a minor event in history, although possibly the Greek diaspora in the west could have some impact then that's going to have huge butterflies in east and west.
A few of my own. a) Byzantium gets a decent emperor starting a new dynasty in the 11thC. It keeps the Balkans under control smashes a Seljuk invasion and possibly expands its control to all of Syria and even Palestine. This is going to prevent, at least for a while any Turkish empire in the west and you might even see an attempt to reclaim Egypt at some point. You might well butterfly the crusades, or if they do occur their likely to be against the Orthodox church. Of course assuming the Mongol empire still emerges then the empire is likely to get a hell of a kicking later on.
b) For whatever reason Christianity never becomes dominant in the Mediterranean world. You could well then see Rome becoming a recurrent empire somewhat like China, with possible periods of decline followed by new dynasties refounding the empire around the Med every few centuries.
c) Obvious one for a Brit, the good guys win at Hastings. That gives a radically different British Is and also interaction of England especially with the rest of Europe as well as the possible impact on the Normans. Their already conquered most of southern Italy but if their homeland fails to gain control of England and later the rest of the isles how does that affect them. Especially if say William dies at Hastings along with most of his troops you could see the Duchy of Normandy plunged into chaos and cease to be a major player in which case what might that do to events in France>
d) Similar to b) what if Islam never becomes a great religion. Posisbly something happens to Muhammad while he's still an exiled raider or even earlier. Or the chaos after his death means his state collapses. Or simply Phocas never replaced emperor Marcuse's dynasty and the murderous war between Byzantium and Sassanid Persia never occurs so when nimble but small Arab forces start raiding the settled lands the empires - or possibly their minor allies in the southern part of the fertile crescent handle the excursions. Possibly followed up by some further internal revolts and invasions by Byzantium, Persian and/or Axum which remove them as a political power.
For something post 1900 say some butterflies mean the Provisional government in Russia survives and after some difficulties manages to establish a stable democratic state. That makes development of the former Russia empire vastly different and also probably of Europe. Your unlikely to see the rise of the Nazis or if they still do their almost certainly swatted a lot earlier Plus where will fanatical communism occur and what impact will it have. [Likely to be somewhere given ideas at the time].
Alternatively say WWI comes a bit earlier, say during one of the Moroccian crisis. This is likely to lead to a relatively short and far less costly war simply because with no development of the Haber process Germany can't last more than say 12-18 months at most before its out of nitrates to supply either explosive production or fertilizer for its farms.
I'll ignore the obvious serious changes post 1900 like somehow fascism becoming the dominant culture or a full scale nuclear exchange between two great/super powers.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Jul 31, 2021 18:14:03 GMT
My own ideas:
1) A World of Difference: Julius Caesar is defeated in either one of the two Roman invasions of Britain, averting the potential transformation of the Roman Republic into an Empire. Caesar's failure in Britain only emboldens the Senate to impose significant restrictions on Caesar's power, and while the Roman state would still exist, Britain remains virtually untouched. It also elevates Cassivelaunus into the founding father of what would become a Celtic-dominated British Isles.
2) To Set the Yurt on the Mighty Buri-Chai: One of the migration movements of the Bulgars ends up taking a different route after a surprise raid by a Khazar raiding party (the Bulgar tribes led by Khan Kotrag, who IOTL founded the medieval entity of Volga Bulgaria), and Khan Kotrag's Bulgars end up on the Dnieper instead of the Volga. Surprisingly enough, they discover a rather decent sized settlement, and after negotiations with the local inhabitants, they eventually take control of it, making it the capital of the Buri-Chai Bulgar state, or what we now call Dnieper Bulgaria. The absence of the Bulgar migration into the Volga means that the Khazars would be able to expand further east into the Volga, before coming under the attack by other Turkic tribes.
3) An obvious one would have been the Golden Horde converts to Christianity instead of Islam, although in this case I want to explore the socio-cultural and political effects on the Golden Horde's society since it would have added another layer of ethnic diversity within the Khanate. Aside from the Orthodox Slavic Russians and Turkic Muslims, the Mongols would have either assimilated to the former, or emerge as a similar group to the Hazara (Hazaras being a Mongolic group that adopted the Persian language and the Shia Muslim faith). Alternatively, if the Golden Horde converts to Buddhism, that would have truly diversified the various ethnic groups within the Golden Horde.
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genyodectes
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I'm just a Ceratosaur trying to make his way in Alternate History
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Post by genyodectes on Jul 31, 2021 22:40:19 GMT
Some ideas not really looked at that I think could be interesting given enough time :
To Rule, Be Greek : Basically, one of the major problems that the Seleucids and Ptolemies faced when attempting to Greekify their domains was they gave no incentives for the native population to actually go to Greek and stay Greek after being conquered. In Bactria, iirc, the requirements to be a member of the ruling/upper classes was basically you had to convert to the Greek Pantheon or just learn to speak and write Greek and dress in Greek Attire, which greatly incentivized Hellenization of the native populace there as it basically meant you could be a member of the ruling class by just changing your religion and language to fit with the rulers of the land. Both Diadochi states tried to get as much Greek colonization from Hellas, but there was no incentive for the greeks to go there (Since Macedonia was likely going to always keep the Barbarians away, which would be any major reason for a Greek diaspora) pre-rome and by the time of Rome's conquests, either A) The state had effectively abandoned trying to gain greek colonization and slowly began to be converted into the local culture (Ptolemies) B) were fighting a Civil War/Native Revolt every decade, making the realm to unstable and really not that enticing to go towards for a new life, and C) Rome wasn't harsh to the Greeks, so they had no reason to flee. Any forced attempt Latinization of the Greeks would've seen some large scale revolt and if crushed, might've led to a diaspora, but by then, where are they going to go? By Rome's conquests, the Diadochi States are falling apart, Carthage is a non-factor, the Greek colonies in the West are protected by Rome and under it's influence, including the critical city of Syracuse, there's untamed barbarians that'd likely kill them if they went north, and the minor states in Asia minor will be swallowed up by Rome eventually.
Setting a POD to Antiochus I Soter's reign where he makes the decision that all you need to be a ruling member/part of the elite is to be greek might see Syria, Asia Minor, Mesopatamia, and maybe a decent portion of Persia to Hellenize. Give that a century, maybe two, to simmer and you might have a pretty large greek population in the two Diadochi states outside of Greece, which might have pretty big butterflies if Antiochus II Theos successfully repels the Parni so the Parthians don't get a major foothold in Persia, allowing for Persia to be relatively stable and loyal for a time. The farther east you go, the less hellenized you will be. But still, imagine when fighting, Rome faces a more unified Diadochi state that doesn't have the internal strife and Native uprisings per OTL. Furthermore, they could potentially colonize Arabia, leading to Greco-Syrian, Greco-Persian, and Greco-Arabian Kingdoms when the Seleucid Empire inevitably ends, creating massive butterflies. This is an interesting concept to think about. This would definitely to a more helenized east and maybe a greater distaste for the Greeks in the West, which would be unthinkable
Alexander the Conqueror : Alexander I of Epirus, Uncle and Brother-in-law of AtG and Uncle of Pyrrhus of Epirus, isn't killed in the Battle of Pandosia and wins, going on to conquer much of the Peninsula, and conquering Rome, creating a mini-Empire in Italy for Epirus. This leads to a Greek effort to colonize the Italian interior in some fashion and depending on what happens, the showdown between superpowers could be Epirus against Carthage and in that fight, I have no idea who wins. Main effects will definitely be no Rome, but also greater Greek Influence in Italy, maybe Gaul too depending on Massalia. Would definitely lead to an interesting world without Rome.
Phalanx on the Elbe : A greek colony is founded either on the coast of Germania or in Germania's interior along the Elbe River The tribe in the region adopts some greek ideas while the greeks adopt some German customs, creating a unique Greco-German culture not really seen elsewhere in Europe or the world. Slowly, this tribe's influence expands and is able to form some kind of federation/Kingdom in say Hanover. This Kingdom is Germanic in some aspects, but Greek in others and that scares Rome, who tries to get it dismantled, only for these plans to be stomped out. Eventually, this Kingdom goes with the Migration and depending on what happens, maybe its successor in the old Western Empire could be slightly more advanced than its neighboring counterparts. Any ideas for what may come next?
These are just a few. If you want to do anything with them, feel free to.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Aug 1, 2021 5:21:22 GMT
Generally any POD that goes back way into the past would make the butterflies unrecognizable from there on.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2021 11:14:42 GMT
My own ideas: 1) A World of Difference: Julius Caesar is defeated in either one of the two Roman invasions of Britain, averting the potential transformation of the Roman Republic into an Empire. Caesar's failure in Britain only emboldens the Senate to impose significant restrictions on Caesar's power, and while the Roman state would still exist, Britain remains virtually untouched. It also elevates Cassivelaunus into the founding father of what would become a Celtic-dominated British Isles.
I'm not sure the Roman Republic would survive that much longer if Caesar found an early death or simply failed to emerge as a significant power. [Defeat in Britain after success in Gaul might only delay his rise to prominence.] However even without him I think the development of such a large empire and the growing corruption of the political system meant its days were numbered. However with a different path to some sort of 'emperor' who knows what might have happened.
It might be that Britain stays outside the empire but I wouldn't rely on it. The island stayed largely untouched for nearly a century before Claudius found a need to come calling and could easily happen again under a strong Roman ruler, or even a general like Caesar looking for fame and glory. Possibly even earlier if a strong king unites much of the south as it could be painted as a threat.
Interesting idea. Having the Khazer's centred further east might work well for them as their not in the way of the Rus and then betrayed by Byzantium who prefers the latter after they become Orthodox they could last longer as a great power on the western steppes. Although of course that could mean a harder fall assuming the Mongols come calling. Mind you could the Khazer's have started spreading Judaism further east and end up clashing with Islam in central Asia, which would further complicate matters there? Remember reading one book on the Khazers that suggested they had influence on the early Magyars and also might have been not far from where the Seljuk's started out so image their emergence as a Jewish horde invading the ME?
Having the Bulgarians further west would protect them a bit longer but their now going to be in the way of the Rus traders and merchants so they could suffer the fate of the Khazers OTL, although with nowhere else to run to. Plus if their associated with the Danubian Bulgar's, even if by some cultural or linguistic similarities that is likely to make the empire more hostile to them. Unless they actually make common cause with their southern kin which could really screw over the empire in the Balkans. Possibly even a union that establishes a Bulgar state from OTL Bulgaria to the Dnieper. THat would be a big and interesting change to eastern Europe, especially if they avoided being absorbed/dominated by any emerging Russia.
The Golden Horde did have one ruler who seems to have been interested in Christianity. The relevent section on wiki goes:
There is some dispute over the exact identity of Ulaghchi according to other sources and also the suggestion that the deaths of Sartaq and Ulaghchi weren't natural with a coup being planned by two of Batu's brothers, one of whom Berke became the new Khan and as it said, having converted to Islam pulled the empire Horde that way.
If Sartaq had survived them I suspect the Horde might well have become Christian - see Sartaq_Khan which has brief details of his life including suggestions of his death
From that I suspect that Sartaq had converted to Orthodox Christianity, since he was on very close terms with Alexander Nevsky and given that was the religion of the western part of the Hordes lands a decent length of reign by Sartaq could have started the Horde on conversion to that faith, although Islam might well have emerged in its eastern lands with their exposure to Turkish influence.
One other factor with this change is that it would probably have reduced tension between the Golden Horde and its southern kin the Ilkhanate. Partly this was because the founder of that, Hulagu seems to have taken over some of the lands earlier assigned to the Horde but also religion was a definite factor as Berke was angered at the sack of Baghdad and other major Muslim centres during the Ilkhanate's conquest of much of the ME region. I have seen it suggested that there were a fair number of eastern Christians in the Ilkhanate and they spared fellow Christians during this advance while the commander of the force that Hulagu left behind when he withdrew eastwards to cooler lands was commanded by Kitbuqa who was a Nestorian Christian. This was the force defeated by the Marluks at Ain Jalut, often taken as their high water mark.
As such better relations between the two Khanates might have let the Ilkhanate survive longer and possibly even launch a full scale invasion of Egypt, although this could be a step too far. Its unlikely that the Ilkhanate would have been a successful Christian state, although the rulers and court were Buddhist for several decades to try and balance religious interest before it became overwhelmingly Muslim.
This last bit ended up a hell of a lot longer than I intended but then as you might have guessed this is something I've dabbled with in the past.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 1, 2021 11:22:46 GMT
Some ideas not really looked at that I think could be interesting given enough time : To Rule, Be Greek : Basically, one of the major problems that the Seleucids and Ptolemies faced when attempting to Greekify their domains was they gave no incentives for the native population to actually go to Greek and stay Greek after being conquered. In Bactria, iirc, the requirements to be a member of the ruling/upper classes was basically you had to convert to the Greek Pantheon or just learn to speak and write Greek and dress in Greek Attire, which greatly incentivized Hellenization of the native populace there as it basically meant you could be a member of the ruling class by just changing your religion and language to fit with the rulers of the land. Both Diadochi states tried to get as much Greek colonization from Hellas, but there was no incentive for the greeks to go there (Since Macedonia was likely going to always keep the Barbarians away, which would be any major reason for a Greek diaspora) pre-rome and by the time of Rome's conquests, either A) The state had effectively abandoned trying to gain greek colonization and slowly began to be converted into the local culture (Ptolemies) B) were fighting a Civil War/Native Revolt every decade, making the realm to unstable and really not that enticing to go towards for a new life, and C) Rome wasn't harsh to the Greeks, so they had no reason to flee. Any forced attempt Latinization of the Greeks would've seen some large scale revolt and if crushed, might've led to a diaspora, but by then, where are they going to go? By Rome's conquests, the Diadochi States are falling apart, Carthage is a non-factor, the Greek colonies in the West are protected by Rome and under it's influence, including the critical city of Syracuse, there's untamed barbarians that'd likely kill them if they went north, and the minor states in Asia minor will be swallowed up by Rome eventually. Setting a POD to Antiochus I Soter's reign where he makes the decision that all you need to be a ruling member/part of the elite is to be greek might see Syria, Asia Minor, Mesopatamia, and maybe a decent portion of Persia to Hellenize. Give that a century, maybe two, to simmer and you might have a pretty large greek population in the two Diadochi states outside of Greece, which might have pretty big butterflies if Antiochus II Theos successfully repels the Parni so the Parthians don't get a major foothold in Persia, allowing for Persia to be relatively stable and loyal for a time. The farther east you go, the less hellenized you will be. But still, imagine when fighting, Rome faces a more unified Diadochi state that doesn't have the internal strife and Native uprisings per OTL. Furthermore, they could potentially colonize Arabia, leading to Greco-Syrian, Greco-Persian, and Greco-Arabian Kingdoms when the Seleucid Empire inevitably ends, creating massive butterflies. This is an interesting concept to think about. This would definitely to a more helenized east and maybe a greater distaste for the Greeks in the West, which would be unthinkable Alexander the Conqueror : Alexander I of Epirus, Uncle and Brother-in-law of AtG and Uncle of Pyrrhus of Epirus, isn't killed in the Battle of Pandosia and wins, going on to conquer much of the Peninsula, and conquering Rome, creating a mini-Empire in Italy for Epirus. This leads to a Greek effort to colonize the Italian interior in some fashion and depending on what happens, the showdown between superpowers could be Epirus against Carthage and in that fight, I have no idea who wins. Main effects will definitely be no Rome, but also greater Greek Influence in Italy, maybe Gaul too depending on Massalia. Would definitely lead to an interesting world without Rome. Phalanx on the Elbe : A greek colony is founded either on the coast of Germania or in Germania's interior along the Elbe River The tribe in the region adopts some greek ideas while the greeks adopt some German customs, creating a unique Greco-German culture not really seen elsewhere in Europe or the world. Slowly, this tribe's influence expands and is able to form some kind of federation/Kingdom in say Hanover. This Kingdom is Germanic in some aspects, but Greek in others and that scares Rome, who tries to get it dismantled, only for these plans to be stomped out. Eventually, this Kingdom goes with the Migration and depending on what happens, maybe its successor in the old Western Empire could be slightly more advanced than its neighboring counterparts. Any ideas for what may come next? These are just a few. If you want to do anything with them, feel free to.
Some interesting ideas here. Don't have enough knowledge of the period to know why there wasn't such a process of assimilation other than in Bacteria but that 1st could make for a very different world even if the greater eastern Greece ultimately was conquered and absorbed by local forces or outsiders. It could also as you say give Rome a much greater challenge and possibly mean that the latter stays in the central and western Med and possibly more attention to northern areas.
The 2nd is also interesting as there were numerous possibilities for Greeks to have more power in Italy and possibly even supplant/destroy the young Rome.
Not sure about the 3rd as I can't really see a reason for a Greek settlement in Germania.
Steve
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Aug 3, 2021 0:20:45 GMT
Just wondering as to what kind of PoDs would result in the creation of divergent dialects of Greek that will become separate languages in their own right, much like how Vulgar Latin had offshoots that became Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, and French, as well as other Romance language. I'm not sure the Roman Republic would survive that much longer if Caesar found an early death or simply failed to emerge as a significant power. [Defeat in Britain after success in Gaul might only delay his rise to prominence.] However even without him I think the development of such a large empire and the growing corruption of the political system meant its days were numbered. However with a different path to some sort of 'emperor' who knows what might have happened.
It might be that Britain stays outside the empire but I wouldn't rely on it. The island stayed largely untouched for nearly a century before Claudius found a need to come calling and could easily happen again under a strong Roman ruler, or even a general like Caesar looking for fame and glory. Possibly even earlier if a strong king unites much of the south as it could be painted as a threat. True, although if Caesar had survived the failed invasion of Britain, he could be a bit more cautious in his political career. Maybe he might not do something stupid that led to his assassination at the hands of the Senate. Interesting idea. Having the Khazer's centred further east might work well for them as their not in the way of the Rus and then betrayed by Byzantium who prefers the latter after they become Orthodox they could last longer as a great power on the western steppes. Although of course that could mean a harder fall assuming the Mongols come calling. Mind you could the Khazer's have started spreading Judaism further east and end up clashing with Islam in central Asia, which would further complicate matters there? Remember reading one book on the Khazers that suggested they had influence on the early Magyars and also might have been not far from where the Seljuk's started out so image their emergence as a Jewish horde invading the ME?
Having the Bulgarians further west would protect them a bit longer but their now going to be in the way of the Rus traders and merchants so they could suffer the fate of the Khazers OTL, although with nowhere else to run to. Plus if their associated with the Danubian Bulgar's, even if by some cultural or linguistic similarities that is likely to make the empire more hostile to them. Unless they actually make common cause with their southern kin which could really screw over the empire in the Balkans. Possibly even a union that establishes a Bulgar state from OTL Bulgaria to the Dnieper. THat would be a big and interesting change to eastern Europe, especially if they avoided being absorbed/dominated by any emerging Russia. OTL Volga Bulgaria was founded in the 7th century, well before the rise of the Rus'. In this scenario, a Kievan or Dnieper Bulgarian state would have been a major barrier to any potential horde invading Europe. Since Khan Kotrag and his tribe would be ruling over a large population of East Slavs, they may eventually assimilate into the local population, much like their cousins in the Danube. The Khazars in this case would bear the brunt of the attacks from other tribes in the Pontic Steppe, like the Magyars and Cumans. From that I suspect that Sartaq had converted to Orthodox Christianity, since he was on very close terms with Alexander Nevsky and given that was the religion of the western part of the Hordes lands a decent length of reign by Sartaq could have started the Horde on conversion to that faith, although Islam might well have emerged in its eastern lands with their exposure to Turkish influence.
One other factor with this change is that it would probably have reduced tension between the Golden Horde and its southern kin the Ilkhanate. Partly this was because the founder of that, Hulagu seems to have taken over some of the lands earlier assigned to the Horde but also religion was a definite factor as Berke was angered at the sack of Baghdad and other major Muslim centres during the Ilkhanate's conquest of much of the ME region. I have seen it suggested that there were a fair number of eastern Christians in the Ilkhanate and they spared fellow Christians during this advance while the commander of the force that Hulagu left behind when he withdrew eastwards to cooler lands was commanded by Kitbuqa who was a Nestorian Christian. This was the force defeated by the Marluks at Ain Jalut, often taken as their high water mark.
As such better relations between the two Khanates might have let the Ilkhanate survive longer and possibly even launch a full scale invasion of Egypt, although this could be a step too far. Its unlikely that the Ilkhanate would have been a successful Christian state, although the rulers and court were Buddhist for several decades to try and balance religious interest before it became overwhelmingly Muslim. True, although converting to Christianity might depend on who gets to convert him, that is the main question. It would be easy for Sartaq to be baptized by a Russian Orthodox priest, making a Christian Golden Horde more appealing to their Rus' vassals. Another thing too, was that Bulgaria also had a Genghisid ruler as well. I also wrote a TL on this very premise as well, but it involved Sartaq converting to Orthodox Christianity, not through their Rus' vassals, the Byzantines, or even the Bulgarians, but rather the emerging Kingdom of Serbia under the Nemanjic dynasty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaka_of_Bulgaria
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Aug 3, 2021 11:38:26 GMT
Just wondering as to what kind of PoDs would result in the creation of divergent dialects of Greek that will become separate languages in their own right, much like how Vulgar Latin had offshoots that became Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, and French, as well as other Romance language. I'm not sure the Roman Republic would survive that much longer if Caesar found an early death or simply failed to emerge as a significant power. [Defeat in Britain after success in Gaul might only delay his rise to prominence.] However even without him I think the development of such a large empire and the growing corruption of the political system meant its days were numbered. However with a different path to some sort of 'emperor' who knows what might have happened.
It might be that Britain stays outside the empire but I wouldn't rely on it. The island stayed largely untouched for nearly a century before Claudius found a need to come calling and could easily happen again under a strong Roman ruler, or even a general like Caesar looking for fame and glory. Possibly even earlier if a strong king unites much of the south as it could be painted as a threat. True, although if Caesar had survived the failed invasion of Britain, he could be a bit more cautious in his political career. Maybe he might not do something stupid that led to his assassination at the hands of the Senate. Interesting idea. Having the Khazer's centred further east might work well for them as their not in the way of the Rus and then betrayed by Byzantium who prefers the latter after they become Orthodox they could last longer as a great power on the western steppes. Although of course that could mean a harder fall assuming the Mongols come calling. Mind you could the Khazer's have started spreading Judaism further east and end up clashing with Islam in central Asia, which would further complicate matters there? Remember reading one book on the Khazers that suggested they had influence on the early Magyars and also might have been not far from where the Seljuk's started out so image their emergence as a Jewish horde invading the ME?
Having the Bulgarians further west would protect them a bit longer but their now going to be in the way of the Rus traders and merchants so they could suffer the fate of the Khazers OTL, although with nowhere else to run to. Plus if their associated with the Danubian Bulgar's, even if by some cultural or linguistic similarities that is likely to make the empire more hostile to them. Unless they actually make common cause with their southern kin which could really screw over the empire in the Balkans. Possibly even a union that establishes a Bulgar state from OTL Bulgaria to the Dnieper. THat would be a big and interesting change to eastern Europe, especially if they avoided being absorbed/dominated by any emerging Russia. OTL Volga Bulgaria was founded in the 7th century, well before the rise of the Rus'. In this scenario, a Kievan or Dnieper Bulgarian state would have been a major barrier to any potential horde invading Europe. Since Khan Kotrag and his tribe would be ruling over a large population of East Slavs, they may eventually assimilate into the local population, much like their cousins in the Danube. The Khazars in this case would bear the brunt of the attacks from other tribes in the Pontic Steppe, like the Magyars and Cumans. From that I suspect that Sartaq had converted to Orthodox Christianity, since he was on very close terms with Alexander Nevsky and given that was the religion of the western part of the Hordes lands a decent length of reign by Sartaq could have started the Horde on conversion to that faith, although Islam might well have emerged in its eastern lands with their exposure to Turkish influence.
One other factor with this change is that it would probably have reduced tension between the Golden Horde and its southern kin the Ilkhanate. Partly this was because the founder of that, Hulagu seems to have taken over some of the lands earlier assigned to the Horde but also religion was a definite factor as Berke was angered at the sack of Baghdad and other major Muslim centres during the Ilkhanate's conquest of much of the ME region. I have seen it suggested that there were a fair number of eastern Christians in the Ilkhanate and they spared fellow Christians during this advance while the commander of the force that Hulagu left behind when he withdrew eastwards to cooler lands was commanded by Kitbuqa who was a Nestorian Christian. This was the force defeated by the Marluks at Ain Jalut, often taken as their high water mark.
As such better relations between the two Khanates might have let the Ilkhanate survive longer and possibly even launch a full scale invasion of Egypt, although this could be a step too far. Its unlikely that the Ilkhanate would have been a successful Christian state, although the rulers and court were Buddhist for several decades to try and balance religious interest before it became overwhelmingly Muslim. True, although converting to Christianity might depend on who gets to convert him, that is the main question. It would be easy for Sartaq to be baptized by a Russian Orthodox priest, making a Christian Golden Horde more appealing to their Rus' vassals. Another thing too, was that Bulgaria also had a Genghisid ruler as well. I also wrote a TL on this very premise as well, but it involved Sartaq converting to Orthodox Christianity, not through their Rus' vassals, the Byzantines, or even the Bulgarians, but rather the emerging Kingdom of Serbia under the Nemanjic dynasty. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaka_of_Bulgaria
a) Fragmented Greek languages might come about by a continued large Greek empire, say the successors to Alexander don't feud as much and possibly one heads west and conquers much of Italy and Sicily at least - removing Rome from the field. Possibly even united for a while under some conqueror. Then after a period it declines and fragments and you get multiple invaders of different regions so they never reunite.
Of course the problem with that is that the Greek heartland is probably still going to be around OTL Greece and western Anatolia and might continue to have prestige that prompts it to be considered 'true Greek' but a few centuries of separation coupled with influence from non-Greeks and you might get a lasting fragmentation.
b) I suspect that defeat would make Caesar more reckless. He had been the junior member of the 1st Triumvirate and the success in Gaul, here checked by some disaster in Briton - say a legion largely destroyed? - would still have him as possibly seen as the weakest of the three. [Until Crassus does something stupid in the east]. As such and given what seems to be his character I think he would double up to regain prestige. Which could simply mean he meets a bloody end far sooner in some clash, say in Germania. Anyway I think the Republic, as a 'republic' was pretty much doomed, between internal conflicts and corruption and the sheer size of the empire Rome now ruled.
c) I know that the Volga Bulgaria was founded before the Rus headed south but their now in the position the Khazers were OTL. As such unless something butterflies them the Rus will be coming south sooner or later. The Bulgars could do better simply because its their core territory and hence they have to hold it or be evicted whereas for the Khazers their core was further east so they could survive without the Dnieper valley. Or they could do worse because they don't have additional resources to call on. Or a third alternative, if they were to convert to Orthodox Christianity they might well get support from the empire against the pagan Rus. Which could in turn delay their conversion or mean that assuming they still get to occupy northern regions they might end up with a different religion. [An Orthodox Bulgarian Ukraine and a Muslim Rus in the northern forest region could be an alternative. Or the Rus could end up Jewish due to Khazer influence or Catholic.]
The other issue is what interaction are there between Bulgars on the Dnieper and those on the Danube? IIRC the empire initially used the Rus as an ally to attack the Bulgars from the north, only to find out they could be an even greater threat themselves. The idea of a combination between the two groups are likely to cause serious concerns in Constantinople.
The Khazer's are going to be even more on the front line against future steppe incursions but without hostility from the Rus and then the empire they might hold up pretty well and also spread influence further east. Doubt you would see a Jewish Mongol empire but could see a lot more Jewish populations in the Eurasian region.
d) From the close friendship with Alexander Nevsky and that he would have been aware of the continued presence of the Byzantine empire as well as that the majority of the Christians he ruled were Orthodox I would expect that he become Orthodox himself. This could make the Golden Horde a lot more palatable to the Russians, which in turn could mean that Moscow never rises to the same prominence as other states in the region stay significant rivals while the state that emerges has its centres of power and population in the southern plains of Ukraine and the Don-Volga region.
How such an empire would fare against Timur if he still occurs, or another fanatical Muslim ruler of an eastern nomadic state would be an interesting question. It could be weakened by being a hybrid, with settled populations increasingly politically and economically dominant over the remaining nomadic elements but also that might mean it recovers more quickly as areas such as the Volga valley and lower Don, if not further east - are seen as part of the same state/nation rather than radically different in religion and culture. [We could have just established a 'Russian' monolithic state several centuries earlier than OTL! Although the difficulties of keeping such a vast region under real control for prolonged periods could limits its development.]
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jjohnson
Chief petty officer
Posts: 144
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Post by jjohnson on Sept 4, 2021 0:57:49 GMT
Here you go:
1. Westrogothia and Ostrogothia: The Goths settle in the Iberian peninsula and successfully eliminate the Romance language there, replacing it with their own, while the Suebians had settled along the central and upper western coast, creating their own kingdom there that was in dynastic union with Westrogothia for . To the east, the Balaeric Islands hold the small Vandal tribes who create their own strong government till the Arabic invasions, when they return to Europe and head west, then set sail, not to be heard from again till the 15th century, when the Suebians discovered the Lost Vandals on Madeira, the Canary Islands, and the Azores, with three distinct languages with multiple dialects. The Gepids occupied the southeastern part of Europe, while the Ostrogoths were pushed out of Italy by the 700s, and they settled in the basin we would know as Transylvania and north thereof, preventing the magyars from settling within western Europe. Southern Slavs never reached the west and settled in what we would call Romania and Bulgaria, while the Burgundians settling in southern France became romanized, a 500-year-sister tribe of Burgundians had settled in Crimea, being off the radar for most of history until their kingdom re-emerged on the scene around the end of the first millenium. East Burgundy, as it was called, was subsumed by the Khanate, then the Golden Horde, placed under Lithuanian protection in 1389, and achieved independence in 1612. The Romanians as we would call them settled west, as their place was displaced by the south slavs, placing this timeline's Romania in the territory of what we would call 'Yugoslavia', subsuming the Albanians into their nation until the Albanian language went extinct in the 19th century, becoming a historic curiosity to linguists. The Seventh Crusade, or what historians would call it, resulted in the recovery of Constantinople in 1514, and resettling many Greeks there, but the Ottomans proceeded deep into Europe for much of the 17th and 18th century until they were pushed away from Vienna and central Europe and finally out of Constantinople by 1877 with a combined forced of Romanians, Austrians, Burgundians, and Ostrogothians, the Bulgarians and other South slavs on the Baltic coast providing what little help they could to the effort. Being so occupied, these various nations never participated in colonization as much as the British, French, or Germans did. In the New World, a lost tribe of Norse had managed to settle and hold onto Newfoundland, St John Island, and Cape Breton Island, with evidence of their having traded far south, their foreign diseases and alcohol having wiped out a number of native tribes unknowingly, making future colonization by Europe much easier.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 18, 2022 21:43:36 GMT
Heavy Plough is invented in Germania in 500 BC.
This means that the population of Germania increases by 50% or more. If the Germanics also invent the horse collar, then populatiin of Germania, Gaul and Britain doubles or even triples.
Horses first domesticated by someone else than Indo Europeans
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jan 19, 2022 6:07:56 GMT
Here are a few ideas I have. I'm sure any one of those could do the job nicely.
1-What if the dark ages never happened and the scientific, medical, and engineering advances are simply never lost. We would be about a thousand years ahead of where we are today. We would live in a world of starships and FTL speeds. A world that has us mining the asteroid belt and colonizing other solar systems.
2-The United States fails to gain its independence from Great Britain and we remain as a part of the empire. The empire of course doesn't fall apart post world war 2.
3-The USSR lands on the Moon first and the space race doesn't end. The first man on Mars happens sometime in the 1990-2000s.
4-The personal computer never takes off. Computers remain something found only in offices.
5-The Able Archer exercise sparks World War 3 and we now live in a post-nuclear attack.
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Post by Otto Kretschmer on Jan 21, 2022 13:43:04 GMT
Sargon the Great is born a girl. Indescribable changes to world history
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