Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 5, 2021 17:33:13 GMT
Despite being massively overshadowed by the Nazis, the German communists who rose to prominence in the aftermath of the Great War were still a notorious bunch, known for inciting violent revolution and seeking to tear down the fragile democracy of the Weimar Republic. If their thuggish behavior in OTL is an indication, then I doubt a Germany in which they came out on top would be a very pleasant place.
Still, barring some crazy fluke that puts a cabal of Hitler-like monsters in charge, it'd take a lot to make them match the Third Reich in the Depravity Department. That in mind, what's the most evil possible Red Germany that could emerge after World War One ends? One interesting, less ASB-ish suggestion I've seen proposes a Red Germany that basically subscribes to a form of "Germanized Stalinism", complete with artificial famines and deadly labor camps to eliminate "troublesome" ethnic groups and a war of aggression against Soviet Russia down the line, in a paranoid effort to wipe out a bastion of "Jewish-perverted" communism. I've also discussed a far more unlikely (and even more extreme) scenario, in which some German Pol Pot expy who takes Marx's notion of "primitive communism" way too far seizes power and unleashes Year Zero all across Europe. Perhaps it'd be a Red Himmler who leads that charge, though I'm also curious as to whether making Hitler himself a communist and putting him in charge of Germany would be enough. We can discuss different scenarios than any of the ones floated upstream, of course.
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jul 6, 2021 11:41:06 GMT
Despite being massively overshadowed by the Nazis, the German communists who rose to prominence in the aftermath of the Great War were still a notorious bunch, known for inciting violent revolution and seeking to tear down the fragile democracy of the Weimar Republic. If their thuggish behavior in OTL is an indication, then I doubt a Germany in which they came out on top would be a very pleasant place.
Still, barring some crazy fluke that puts a cabal of Hitler-like monsters in charge, it'd take a lot to make them match the Third Reich in the Depravity Department. That in mind, what's the most evil possible Red Germany that could emerge after World War One ends? One interesting, less ASB-ish suggestion I've seen proposes a Red Germany that basically subscribes to a form of "Germanized Stalinism", complete with artificial famines and deadly labor camps to eliminate "troublesome" ethnic groups and a war of aggression against Soviet Russia down the line, in a paranoid effort to wipe out a bastion of "Jewish-perverted" communism. I've also discussed a far more unlikely (and even more extreme) scenario, in which some German Pol Pot expy who takes Marx's notion of "primitive communism" way too far seizes power and unleashes Year Zero all across Europe. Perhaps it'd be a Red Himmler who leads that charge, though I'm also curious as to whether making Hitler himself a communist and putting him in charge of Germany would be enough. We can discuss different scenarios than any of the ones floated upstream, of course.
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
I think the problem with a red Germany after 1919, especially if its that extreme is that it gets stomped on rapidly but just about everybody. It will still be weak after the WWI losses and also internally divided like Russia was at a similar date. However its a lot smaller and nearer to centres of opposing powers - Paris, London, Warsaw, Rome etc. Plus the Soviet empire was big enough and isolated enough it could pull off the sort of massacres and internal devastation that Lenin and Stalin did without fatally weakening itself and also making people aware of what's going on as you would have refugees escaping to neighbouring countries. Not to mention Germany, in the centre of Europe, the most industrially advanced continent, would be a lot harder to isolate from the modern world as road, rail and air links would be badly impacted across the continent.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 6, 2021 15:59:44 GMT
Despite being massively overshadowed by the Nazis, the German communists who rose to prominence in the aftermath of the Great War were still a notorious bunch, known for inciting violent revolution and seeking to tear down the fragile democracy of the Weimar Republic. If their thuggish behavior in OTL is an indication, then I doubt a Germany in which they came out on top would be a very pleasant place.
Still, barring some crazy fluke that puts a cabal of Hitler-like monsters in charge, it'd take a lot to make them match the Third Reich in the Depravity Department. That in mind, what's the most evil possible Red Germany that could emerge after World War One ends? One interesting, less ASB-ish suggestion I've seen proposes a Red Germany that basically subscribes to a form of "Germanized Stalinism", complete with artificial famines and deadly labor camps to eliminate "troublesome" ethnic groups and a war of aggression against Soviet Russia down the line, in a paranoid effort to wipe out a bastion of "Jewish-perverted" communism. I've also discussed a far more unlikely (and even more extreme) scenario, in which some German Pol Pot expy who takes Marx's notion of "primitive communism" way too far seizes power and unleashes Year Zero all across Europe. Perhaps it'd be a Red Himmler who leads that charge, though I'm also curious as to whether making Hitler himself a communist and putting him in charge of Germany would be enough. We can discuss different scenarios than any of the ones floated upstream, of course.
Thank you in advance, Zyobot
I think the problem with a red Germany after 1919, especially if its that extreme is that it gets stomped on rapidly but just about everybody. It will still be weak after the WWI losses and also internally divided like Russia was at a similar date. However its a lot smaller and nearer to centres of opposing powers - Paris, London, Warsaw, Rome etc. Plus the Soviet empire was big enough and isolated enough it could pull off the sort of massacres and internal devastation that Lenin and Stalin did without fatally weakening itself and also making people aware of what's going on as you would have refugees escaping to neighbouring countries. Not to mention Germany, in the centre of Europe, the most industrially advanced continent, would be a lot harder to isolate from the modern world as road, rail and air links would be badly impacted across the continent.
Interesting input, thanks. When you say "that extreme", are you referring to the Stalinist version or the Khmer Rouge expy? Either way, I don't know if it necessarily has to be a revolution or civil war from which a Red Germany emerges, though given the communists' tactics and likely willingness of their "overseas comrades" to pitch in, that strikes me as a likely outcome. Otherwise, I'd have recommended that it basically replicate the Nazis' formula for seizing power, though pulling this off also has its problems. Namely, the rest of Europe (sans the Soviets) being automatically distrustful, as opposed to "merely" unsure about Hitler and what his true intentions were. Not until they repeatedly appeased him leading up to his troops marching into Poland, by which time it was too late to quash him straightaway. As such, I suppose that, unless it takes yet another page from Stalin's playbook and begins with a cautious and more self-focused approach, it'll probably just go all "International revolution, ho!" too early and lay its evil bare for all to see (as opposed to the Nazis, again, taking pains to hide the true extent of the Holocaust). Even then, it's not quite isolated enough to avoid international attention like Stalinist Russia was, as you say. Perhaps we'd need a much different World War One leading up to this, so that post-war conditions are ripe for a depraved Red Germany to emerge victorious? Swapping the OTL fates of Imperial Germany and Tsarist Russia strikes me as too contrived, though I haven't had the time to really think through the particulars or implications of such a switch. |
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575
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Post by 575 on Jul 6, 2021 16:25:49 GMT
The German Socialdemocratic Party had no qualms curbing the German Communist's; essentially you had both the Right-wing including the Army and Freikorps as well as Socialdemocratic politicians wanting nothing of the Communist's. Look up Gustav Noske's (early Minister of Defence of the Weimar Republic) handling of affairs.
For the Communist's to succeed they had to defeat both which is basically Germany as such!
Though the Socialdemocrats had no real love of the Freikorps they liked the Communist's less as the parties were competing for the votes of the Workers!
You would have to alienate the Socialdemocratic Party from the rest of Germany to make them side with the Communist's (initially) or at least not fight them. Of course the Communist's would welcome them only to squeeze the Socialdemocratic leaders out as soon as possible - a situation like in Spain during the Civil War.
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James G
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Post by James G on Jul 6, 2021 18:23:13 GMT
Erich Mielke, later head of the East German Stasi, was a murderer. He killed two policemen in Berlin during 1931, crimes which reunited Germany put him on trial for in 1992. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Paul_Anlauf_and_Franz_Lenck Of course the Nazis were worse but the communists there never really got a chance to show what they could do beyond incidents like that. With or without Stalin's influence would mean a different Red Germany too, but I'm not sure which would be more evil. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 6, 2021 18:51:44 GMT
Erich Mielke, later head of the East German Stasi, was a murderer. He killed two policemen in Berlin during 1931, crimes which reunited Germany put him on trial for in 1992. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Paul_Anlauf_and_Franz_Lenck Of course the Nazis were worse but the communists there never really got a chance to show what they could do beyond incidents like that. With or without Stalin's influence would mean a different Red Germany too, but I'm not sure which would be more evil. Thanks for the tip-off. Definitely sounds like a potential despot, though he has a long way to go to establish himself as a communist Hitler.
Given that the person who's influencing them would be Stalin, I imagine that an evil Red Germany is rather easy to guarantee. Whether it'd turn Europe into a charnel house, as the Nazis were so hellbent on doing, isn't as easily settled. At least, not unless they go the route suggested in the AH.com thread I linked to, and are so inured to mass-murder that they talk of exterminating people as if it's discussing the weather. Ditto if they devolve into a German Khmer Rouge and unleash Year Zero across Europe, though that's far less likely to happen.
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Post by redrobin65 on Jul 10, 2021 12:38:46 GMT
I think a Red Germany could be quite authoritarian/intolerant of dissent. If the surrounding political situation in other countries is close to OTL, then they would have a lot of countries hostile to it: Poland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, and most of the Balkans were staunchly anti-communist. France had influential communists but even so the country would be suspiscious of Germany. Whoever is in charge in Berlin could say "we're surrounded by hostile countries, so there can't be any challenges to our authority here." Basically using outside threats as a way to crush internal dissent. I'm not sure *how* authoritarian they would be though.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jul 10, 2021 22:58:58 GMT
I think a Red Germany could be quite authoritarian/intolerant of dissent. If the surrounding political situation in other countries is close to OTL, then they would have a lot of countries hostile to it: Poland, Italy, Austria, Hungary, and most of the Balkans were staunchly anti-communist. France had influential communists but even so the country would be suspiscious of Germany. Whoever is in charge in Berlin could say "we're surrounded by hostile countries, so there can't be any challenges to our authority here." Basically using outside threats as a way to crush internal dissent. I'm not sure *how* authoritarian they would be though. Considering how Stalin was able to clamp down in a nation far more isolated from the capitalist powers, I can see that happening. Part of me wonders if, for plausibility's sake, Germany would have to adopt a more "moderate" brand of communism in order to receive less scrutiny from the other European powers. But, so long as we're playing to my scenario, what you described sounds more apropos.
In which case, I'd guess that "Germanized Stalinism", even if it's more "soft-touch" than what I relayed in the OP, is still likely to materialize. Especially if it takes cues from Stalin's playbook and opens with a cautious, isolationist foreign policy. How much it could get away with, specifically in the vein of fear-instilling blood purges and crushing "counterrevolutionary activity" wherever it crops up is still up for debate, I'd think.
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