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Post by kyuzoaoi on Jun 19, 2021 17:02:11 GMT
I was thinking, what if an Italian state managed to colonize territories in the Americas? In OTL there was this Thornton expedition where they sailed to French Guiana but their main patron in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Duke Fernandino, died. The French would seize French Guiana years later.
Here, because Cosimo (who in OTL did not support the establishment of a colony because of financial reasons) was more convinced and gambled in this expedition instead.
What would happen next?
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jun 19, 2021 17:14:08 GMT
I was thinking, what if an Italian state managed to colonize territories in the Americas? In OTL there was this Thornton expedition where they sailed to French Guiana but their main patron in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Duke Fernandino, died. The French would seize French Guiana years later. Here, because Cosimo (who in OTL did not support the establishment of a colony because of financial reasons) was more convinced and gambled in this expedition instead. What would happen next? If it happened, its fortunes would very much likely be tied into those of the war and alliances of mainland Europe. It could be attacked in war and taken or traded away for something closer to home. Should a colony survive in South America, maybe it attracts emigrants and thrives. Or it doesn't. The factors are many with that. The idea has some legs to it but there are so many issues to consider. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 19, 2021 18:37:05 GMT
I was thinking, what if an Italian state managed to colonize territories in the Americas? In OTL there was this Thornton expedition where they sailed to French Guiana but their main patron in the Grand Duchy of Tuscany, Duke Fernandino, died. The French would seize French Guiana years later. Here, because Cosimo (who in OTL did not support the establishment of a colony because of financial reasons) was more convinced and gambled in this expedition instead. What would happen next?
Would agree with James plus at this time Spain was still seeking to maintain a monopoly in the Americas, having absorbed Portugal in 1580. As such the colony will be vulnerable to attack by any number of powers and while it might ally with one or more great power that could put them at odds with others. Plus Florence by this stage is a 2ndary power and its position in N Italy means both that its more concerned with maintaining its own position in one of the cock-pits of Europe [N Italy] and also they have limited access to the Atlantic, especially if at any point Spain is an opponent. As such it would need great luck and skilled diplomacy for it to survive unless it was very much insignificant in importance possibly.
Steve
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kyng
Consul General
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Post by kyng on Jun 19, 2021 20:23:43 GMT
The first question I'd like to ask is: why would an Italian state establish a North American colony? I would've thought there would be less incentive for them to do that, since they had plenty of prosperity anyway from the Mediterranean trade. But perhaps that declines in importance for one reason or another, and they look to the Atlantic.
I think that if such a colony is to get off the ground, then this Italian state absolutely has to have a long and stable alliance with Spain. Otherwise, the moment the Italian state gets into war with Spain, it'll be isolated from its own colony (due to Spain blockading the Strait of Gibraltar). Either that, or you could go back further in time, and stop Spain from forming as unified nation. Perhaps the Reconquista never happens in full; an Italian state takes the Strait of Gibraltar from the Moors; and from there they can form a more stable colony in the Americas.
If it does survive in the long run, then I expect there's substantially less Italian emigration to other parts of the Americas, such as Argentina and the USA. I'm curious as to what the impact on popular culture would be!!!
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jun 20, 2021 12:52:28 GMT
The first question I'd like to ask is: why would an Italian state establish a North American colony? I would've thought there would be less incentive for them to do that, since they had plenty of prosperity anyway from the Mediterranean trade. But perhaps that declines in importance for one reason or another, and they look to the Atlantic. I think that if such a colony is to get off the ground, then this Italian state absolutely has to have a long and stable alliance with Spain. Otherwise, the moment the Italian state gets into war with Spain, it'll be isolated from its own colony (due to Spain blockading the Strait of Gibraltar). Either that, or you could go back further in time, and stop Spain from forming as unified nation. Perhaps the Reconquista never happens in full; an Italian state takes the Strait of Gibraltar from the Moors; and from there they can form a more stable colony in the Americas. If it does survive in the long run, then I expect there's substantially less Italian emigration to other parts of the Americas, such as Argentina and the USA. I'm curious as to what the impact on popular culture would be!!!
The best argument for a colony in the Americas, other than 'everybody else is doing it' is the profits that could come from plantation slavery, although exactly how early sugar plantations became profitable I don't know. However agree with your other points, Some agreement with Spain is going to be essential in the early years as an Italian state, doesn't really have the power and geographical location to hold such a colony in the face of Spanish hostility. Venice might be the only exception but its largely committed to fighting to maintain its position in the east and also securing its homeland given that N Italy is increasingly a cock-pit of struggling interests, especially between the French and Hapsburgs so would have little incentive to look east, Also for trading, let alone fighting, in [and across] the Atlantic needs a totally different type of navy.
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Post by kasumigenx on Jun 24, 2021 13:34:19 GMT
The first question I'd like to ask is: why would an Italian state establish a North American colony? I would've thought there would be less incentive for them to do that, since they had plenty of prosperity anyway from the Mediterranean trade. But perhaps that declines in importance for one reason or another, and they look to the Atlantic. I think that if such a colony is to get off the ground, then this Italian state absolutely has to have a long and stable alliance with Spain. Otherwise, the moment the Italian state gets into war with Spain, it'll be isolated from its own colony (due to Spain blockading the Strait of Gibraltar). Either that, or you could go back further in time, and stop Spain from forming as unified nation. Perhaps the Reconquista never happens in full; an Italian state takes the Strait of Gibraltar from the Moors; and from there they can form a more stable colony in the Americas. If it does survive in the long run, then I expect there's substantially less Italian emigration to other parts of the Americas, such as Argentina and the USA. I'm curious as to what the impact on popular culture would be!!!
The best argument for a colony in the Americas, other than 'everybody else is doing it' is the profits that could come from plantation slavery, although exactly how early sugar plantations became profitable I don't know. However agree with your other points, Some agreement with Spain is going to be essential in the early years as an Italian state, doesn't really have the power and geographical location to hold such a colony in the face of Spanish hostility. Venice might be the only exception but its largely committed to fighting to maintain its position in the east and also securing its homeland given that N Italy is increasingly a cock-pit of struggling interests, especially between the French and Hapsburgs so would have little incentive to look east, Also for trading, let alone fighting, in [and across] the Atlantic needs a totally different type of navy.
Perhaps a Papal colony. |
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