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Post by american2006 on Jul 22, 2021 15:15:02 GMT
It seems as if, using a roll call vote from September 10th, there where 421 Representatives in the U.S. House of Representatives in DC at the time, out of 435 total. As per Senate, it seems from roll call votes taken immediately before and after the events of September 11th, it seems that all 100 Senators would die in such an attack.
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 15:33:27 GMT
As said, your scenario relies on the professionals in DC sitting around whistling whilst there is an incoming unidentified aircraft. Air traffic control was aware from 0826 and the FAA and NORAD was notified within 6 minutes. The ordure was starting to hit the fan.
In this circumstance, you have a plane inbound for DC. Is it simply going to be not noticed and absolutely nothing is going to be done in the Capitol and White House?
It seems like you are trying to fiddle with multiple PoDs and fix events to deliver a certain outcome.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Jul 22, 2021 15:47:08 GMT
If you change the flight, it starts to get very difficult to predict what would happen. Suppose that you do select a flight and people on board it were crucial to something later on? Very nebulous. I really don't want to speculate on targets - I don't want to inadvertently end up on a watch list! Even if you go for an earlier plane, you still aren't going to account for the entire Congress and Senate, as they weren't all there that day, nor are you going to have them sitting around sucking their thumbs. While that is true, it's possible that if the Capitol attack is before the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, it could work for a timeline's sake. And I do understand it wouldn't account for the entirety of the House and Senate, I just haven't been able to find the rolecall form from 9/11 According to the Congressional Record for September 11, 2001, here: www.congress.gov/107/crec/2001/09/11/CREC-2001-09-11.pdf At the top of the page, the Senate was not in session that day. I don't know if that means they weren't planning on having a session, or if it was cancelled. *EDIT* Apparently the Senate cancelled its session "moments before the appointed convening time" www.senate.gov/artandhistory/history/minute/Attack.htmAlso, I am not certain that a plane could take out both bodies of Congress, since they meet at opposite ends of the building. Belushi TD |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 22, 2021 15:49:14 GMT
I'm still of the mind that you could have them stopped at the airport due to one reason or another or they just pick another thing to hit. If you're planning on keeping to the supposed plan you hit the capital but nobody dies, will besides the 33 people on 93.
Otherwise, you are messing with so many things that what you have isn't 911 but something else altogether that is 911 like.
By the time the plane could get to DC the passengers are notified about the past attacks and thus are likely to do what they did that day. In which case, all you did was make it crush somewhere else.
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Jul 22, 2021 15:56:45 GMT
You'd almost have to have the hijackers take a plane from either Dulles or Reagan immediately after take off to get the timing right.
Belushi TD
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James G
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Post by James G on Jul 23, 2021 9:33:21 GMT
You'd almost have to have the hijackers take a plane from either Dulles or Reagan immediately after take off to get the timing right. Belushi TD That makes more sense. Quicker flight time, more fuel. |
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Post by halferking on Jul 24, 2021 11:58:26 GMT
American Airlines Flight 77 (AA77) was scheduled to depart from Washington Dulles International at 08:10am to Los Angeles International with a crew of six and 58 passengers: three children and three teachers, officials from National Geographic Society on a field trip, Barbara Olson, the wife of the Solicitor General Ted Olson and others including the five hijackers. The plane departs ten minutes behind schedule at 08:20am.
Thirty minutes after departure the hijackers launch their attack with Hani Hanjour, a trained pilot, taking control of the plane. At 08:54am Flight AA77 deviates from its westbound flight route south. At 08:56am the transponder is deactivated, and the plane disappears from Radar.
An Air Traffic Controller, based at the Indianapolis Air Traffic Control Centre, tries to contact with Flight AA77 and received no response. The IATC official, unaware of events unfolding in New York City, contacts American Airlines who try to contact the plane but with no success.
At 09:12 Renee May, a flight attendant on Flight AA77, manages to make a phone call to American Airlines Raleigh Reservations stating that the plane had been hijacked. Minutes later Mrs Olson also manages to make a phone call to her husband telling him that everyone on board had been herded towards the back of the plane.
At 08:23 American Airlines Raleigh Reservations receives a call from a Flight Attendant on American Airlines Flight 11 indicating that the pilot had been stabbed and everyone had been herded toward the back of the plane. Nidia Gonzalez contacts the American Airlines Emergency Line (AAEL). AAEL pass the message on to Air Traffic Control who have declared it to be a hijacking. Contact is lost with AA Flight 11 and officials are unsure if the plane crashed into the World Trade Center and if not, officials determined that AA11 actual position would be twenty miles south of JFK.
At 08:51 New York Air Traffic Center tries to contact United Airlines Flight 175. NYATC loses track of UA175 but detects an unidentified aircraft.
At 09:00 NYATC detects yet another plane this time about 15 to 20 miles southwest of Newark. At 09:02am a plane can be spotted from the New York Terminal Radar Approach Control Facility (TRACON). It is reported that a plane has just hit the WTC.
At around the same time IATC contacts AA who try to get in contact with Flight AA77. It is during this exchange that IATC learns that a second plane has hit the WTC. People are now aware that AA77 has disappeared.
There appears to be some confusion as to what is happening as no-one is sure if any of the call signs are accurate… In fact, the FBI report to the FAA that the planes that smashed into WTC were American Airlines Flight 77 and American Airlines Flight 11. The FAA do not confirm or deny, but report that UA 175 is also missing. The FBI now assume that the planes are AA77 and UA175. This is corrected and FAA report that it is AA77 and AA11 and that UA175 is not believed to be involved. It seems confusion reigns.
As Officials on the ground scramble to get on top of the fast-moving situation AA77 has had time to travel towards Washington DC undetected. At 09:32 Dulles detects an unknown plane approaching at a high rate of speed and they notify Reagan National Airport. FFA Officials at both airports notify the Secret Service and Reagan orders a National Guard Cargo Plane to try and identify the plane.
At the Capitol Hill complex morning meetings had been interrupted by an alert of the horrific series of events unfolding in New York City. By all reports it was a beautiful day in Washington DC and the Chief of Staff to Majority leader (R -Texas), walks into the morning meeting to be confronted with television footage of the first plane hitting the WTC. His boss walks in and confirms that it is a terrorist attack as a second plane has hit.
There was some confusion as to what to do as members were located throughout the complex. The Press secretary to Speaker was called to the Speaker’s Office to be given a briefing by the Sergeant-at-Arms who claimed that everything was going to be fine. That is when AA77 hit the Pentagon
If anything it is more likely to be American Airlines Flight 77 rather than United Airlines Flight 93 that would target the Capitol Building. The confusion sown during the first attack on the WTC gave ample time for the scumbag terrorists on 77 to reach Washington DC undetected.
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James G
Squadron vice admiral
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Post by James G on Jul 24, 2021 12:28:06 GMT
American Airlines Flight 77 (AA77) was scheduled to depart from Washington Dulles International at 08:10am to Los Angeles International with a crew of six and 58 passengers: three children and three teachers, officials from National Geographic Society on a field trip, Barbara Olson, the wife of the Solicitor General Ted Olson and others including the five hijackers. The plane departs ten minutes behind schedule at 08:20am. Thirty minutes after departure the hijackers launch their attack with Hani Hanjour, a trained pilot, taking control of the plane. At 08:54am Flight AA77 deviates from its westbound flight route south. At 08:56am the transponder is deactivated, and the plane disappears from Radar. An Air Traffic Controller, based at the Indianapolis Air Traffic Control Centre, tries to contact with Flight AA77 and received no response. The IATC official, unaware of events unfolding in New York City, contacts American Airlines who try to contact the plane but with no success. At 09:12 Renee May, a flight attendant on Flight AA77, manages to make a phone call to American Airlines Raleigh Reservations stating that the plane had been hijacked. Minutes later Mrs Olson also manages to make a phone call to her husband telling him that everyone on board had been herded towards the back of the plane. At 08:23 American Airlines Raleigh Reservations receives a call from a Flight Attendant on American Airlines Flight 11 indicating that the pilot had been stabbed and everyone had been herded toward the back of the plane. Nidia Gonzalez contacts the American Airlines Emergency Line (AAEL). AAEL pass the message on to Air Traffic Control who have declared it to be a hijacking. Contact is lost with AA Flight 11 and officials are unsure if the plane crashed into the World Trade Center and if not, officials determined that AA11 actual position would be twenty miles south of JFK. At 08:51 New York Air Traffic Center tries to contact United Airlines Flight 175. NYATC loses track of UA175 but detects an unidentified aircraft. At 09:00 NYATC detects yet another plane this time about 15 to 20 miles southwest of Newark. At 09:02am a plane can be spotted from the New York Terminal Radar Approach Control Facility (TRACON). It is reported that a plane has just hit the WTC. At around the same time IATC contacts AA who try to get in contact with Flight AA77. It is during this exchange that IATC learns that a second plane has hit the WTC. People are now aware that AA77 has disappeared. There appears to be some confusion as to what is happening as no-one is sure if any of the call signs are accurate… In fact, the FBI report to the FAA that the planes that smashed into WTC were American Airlines Flight 77 and American Airlines Flight 11. The FAA do not confirm or deny, but report that UA 175 is also missing. The FBI now assume that the planes are AA77 and UA175. This is corrected and FAA report that it is AA77 and AA11 and that UA175 is not believed to be involved. It seems confusion reigns. As Officials on the ground scramble to get on top of the fast-moving situation AA77 has had time to travel towards Washington DC undetected. At 09:32 Dulles detects an unknown plane approaching at a high rate of speed and they notify Reagan National Airport. FFA Officials at both airports notify the Secret Service and Reagan orders a National Guard Cargo Plane to try and identify the plane. At the Capitol Hill complex morning meetings had been interrupted by an alert of the horrific series of events unfolding in New York City. By all reports it was a beautiful day in Washington DC and the Chief of Staff to Majority leader (R -Texas), walks into the morning meeting to be confronted with television footage of the first plane hitting the WTC. His boss walks in and confirms that it is a terrorist attack as a second plane has hit. There was some confusion as to what to do as members were located throughout the complex. The Press secretary to Speaker was called to the Speaker’s Office to be given a briefing by the Sergeant-at-Arms who claimed that everything was going to be fine. That is when AA77 hit the Pentagon If anything it is more likely to be American Airlines Flight 77 rather than United Airlines Flight 93 that would target the Capitol Building. The confusion sown during the first attack on the WTC gave ample time for the scumbag terrorists on 77 to reach Washington DC undetected. Sorry, not sure if I fully understand. Is this all RL or fiction? If it is how things went OTL that morning, there was no evacuation of Congress ahead of the Pentagon being hit and thus, in theory, that plane would have hit Congress instead? |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 24, 2021 13:40:12 GMT
Just so everybody has an easy way of knowing what is real life stuff and what's been made up for this timeline/story I have looked up the timeline of the 911 attacks. timeline.911memorial.org/#Timeline/2This is post-attack in the days and weeks that followed it. timeline.911memorial.org/#Timeline/3Being a fairly new member of this forum I'm unsure if this kind of thing is allowed but nevertheless it should prove to be a useful bit of info for newer posts both by the poster themselves and the replies to their posts. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jul 24, 2021 13:50:42 GMT
Being a fairly new member of this forum I'm unsure if this kind of thing is allowed but nevertheless it should prove to be a useful bit of info for newer posts both by the poster and the repies to their posts. It is allowed if it helps the discussion. |
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Post by halferking on Jul 24, 2021 22:52:38 GMT
American Airlines Flight 77 (AA77) was scheduled to depart from Washington Dulles International at 08:10am to Los Angeles International with a crew of six and 58 passengers: three children and three teachers, officials from National Geographic Society on a field trip, Barbara Olson, the wife of the Solicitor General Ted Olson and others including the five hijackers. The plane departs ten minutes behind schedule at 08:20am. Thirty minutes after departure the hijackers launch their attack with Hani Hanjour, a trained pilot, taking control of the plane. At 08:54am Flight AA77 deviates from its westbound flight route south. At 08:56am the transponder is deactivated, and the plane disappears from Radar. An Air Traffic Controller, based at the Indianapolis Air Traffic Control Centre, tries to contact with Flight AA77 and received no response. The IATC official, unaware of events unfolding in New York City, contacts American Airlines who try to contact the plane but with no success. At 09:12 Renee May, a flight attendant on Flight AA77, manages to make a phone call to American Airlines Raleigh Reservations stating that the plane had been hijacked. Minutes later Mrs Olson also manages to make a phone call to her husband telling him that everyone on board had been herded towards the back of the plane. At 08:23 American Airlines Raleigh Reservations receives a call from a Flight Attendant on American Airlines Flight 11 indicating that the pilot had been stabbed and everyone had been herded toward the back of the plane. Nidia Gonzalez contacts the American Airlines Emergency Line (AAEL). AAEL pass the message on to Air Traffic Control who have declared it to be a hijacking. Contact is lost with AA Flight 11 and officials are unsure if the plane crashed into the World Trade Center and if not, officials determined that AA11 actual position would be twenty miles south of JFK. At 08:51 New York Air Traffic Center tries to contact United Airlines Flight 175. NYATC loses track of UA175 but detects an unidentified aircraft. At 09:00 NYATC detects yet another plane this time about 15 to 20 miles southwest of Newark. At 09:02am a plane can be spotted from the New York Terminal Radar Approach Control Facility (TRACON). It is reported that a plane has just hit the WTC. At around the same time IATC contacts AA who try to get in contact with Flight AA77. It is during this exchange that IATC learns that a second plane has hit the WTC. People are now aware that AA77 has disappeared. There appears to be some confusion as to what is happening as no-one is sure if any of the call signs are accurate… In fact, the FBI report to the FAA that the planes that smashed into WTC were American Airlines Flight 77 and American Airlines Flight 11. The FAA do not confirm or deny, but report that UA 175 is also missing. The FBI now assume that the planes are AA77 and UA175. This is corrected and FAA report that it is AA77 and AA11 and that UA175 is not believed to be involved. It seems confusion reigns. As Officials on the ground scramble to get on top of the fast-moving situation AA77 has had time to travel towards Washington DC undetected. At 09:32 Dulles detects an unknown plane approaching at a high rate of speed and they notify Reagan National Airport. FFA Officials at both airports notify the Secret Service and Reagan orders a National Guard Cargo Plane to try and identify the plane. At the Capitol Hill complex morning meetings had been interrupted by an alert of the horrific series of events unfolding in New York City. By all reports it was a beautiful day in Washington DC and the Chief of Staff to Majority leader (R -Texas), walks into the morning meeting to be confronted with television footage of the first plane hitting the WTC. His boss walks in and confirms that it is a terrorist attack as a second plane has hit. There was some confusion as to what to do as members were located throughout the complex. The Press secretary to Speaker was called to the Speaker’s Office to be given a briefing by the Sergeant-at-Arms who claimed that everything was going to be fine. That is when AA77 hit the Pentagon If anything it is more likely to be American Airlines Flight 77 rather than United Airlines Flight 93 that would target the Capitol Building. The confusion sown during the first attack on the WTC gave ample time for the scumbag terrorists on 77 to reach Washington DC undetected. Sorry, not sure if I fully understand. Is this all RL or fiction? If it is how things went OTL that morning, there was no evacuation of Congress ahead of the Pentagon being hit and thus, in theory, that plane would have hit Congress instead? It comes from transcripts of conversations between Air Traffic Control, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Federal Aviation Authority, American Airlines and Encyclopaedia Britannica. The testimony comes from people present at the Capitol and is from the book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. It seems, from testimony, that the call to evacuate came after the attack on the Pentagon. According to the Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee a eerie calmness had descended over the building. There were no alarms, no panicking just stunned silence. The Chair of the House Intelligence Committee rushed to the Speaker's Office and called on the Speaker to issue the call to evacuate. The Speaker agreed, but said on the way out he wanted to open the House for a quick session and a prayer. It was 09:50 and the Parliamentarian said that the House could not be opened because the call had been made for 10am. During that brief exchange the Speaker's security detail rushed in and grabbed the Speaker. The Congressman said no we're doing this now. A quick prayer was scribbled down and read out and the session was brought to a swift end. Apparently the Fire Alarms were triggered and Capitol Police rushed through the building telling everyone to evacuate. The Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee states that at the time the best plan that security had in place was a response to a fire... The plan was just that - Police Officers telling people to evacuate going from Office to Office. 535 people were stood on the lawn in front of the building not knowing what to do. It seems that some decided to leave others were taken to the Capitol Police building. Although there was no plan to deal with a terrorist attack against the Capitol a system was immediately initiated to ensure that the Leadership of the US was kept in tact with some being rushed to Mount Weather and a facility called Raven Rock, built as a backup Pentagon. What is bizarre is that the only information being fed to the leadership including the President and VP was what CNN was reporting. At 6pm the leadership at Mount Weather began to return to the Capitol. It was then that some had learned of Flight UA93 and the thought was that the terrorists intended target was the Capitol. From the bits that I have read - Flight AA77 travelled undetected for 36 minutes to Washington DC. 535 people at the Capitol that morning Senators, Representatives, the Speaker and staff. The chaos and confusion on that fateful morning meant that there would be nothing to stop the plane from changing course and slamming into the Dome. Apparently the Head of Pakistan's Intelligence Service was also present having been invited by a Congressman and Senator to continue discussions that they had with him a week earlier in Pakistan. |
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 24, 2021 23:12:24 GMT
Sorry, not sure if I fully understand. Is this all RL or fiction? If it is how things went OTL that morning, there was no evacuation of Congress ahead of the Pentagon being hit and thus, in theory, that plane would have hit Congress instead? It comes from transcripts of conversations between Air Traffic Control, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Federal Aviation Authority, American Airlines and Encyclopaedia Britannica. The testimony comes from people present at the Capitol and is from the book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. It seems, from testimony, that the call to evacuate came after the attack on the Pentagon. According to the Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee a eerie calmness had descended over the building. There were no alarms, no panicking just stunned silence. The Chair of the House Intelligence Committee rushed to the Speaker's Office and called on the Speaker to issue the call to evacuate. The Speaker agreed, but said on the way out he wanted to open the House for a quick session and a prayer. It was 09:50 and the Parliamentarian said that the House could not be opened because the call had been made for 10am. During that brief exchange the Speaker's security detail rushed in and grabbed the Speaker. The Congressman said no we're doing this now. A quick prayer was scribbled down and read out and the session was brought to a swift end. Apparently the Fire Alarms were triggered and Capitol Police rushed through the building telling everyone to evacuate. The Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee states that at the time the best plan that security had in place was a response to a fire... The plan was just that - Police Officers telling people to evacuate going from Office to Office. 535 people were stood on the lawn in front of the building not knowing what to do. It seems that some decided to leave others were taken to the Capitol Police building. Although there was no plan to deal with a terrorist attack against the Capitol a system was immediately initiated to ensure that the Leadership of the US was kept in tact with some being rushed to Mount Weather and a facility called Raven Rock, built as a backup Pentagon. What is bizarre is that the only information being fed to the leadership including the President and VP was what CNN was reporting. At 6pm the leadership at Mount Weather began to return to the Capitol. It was then that some had learned of Flight UA93 and the thought was that the terrorists intended target was the Capitol. From the bits that I have read - Flight AA77 travelled undetected for 36 minutes to Washington DC. 535 people at the Capitol that morning Senators, Representatives, the Speaker and staff. The chaos and confusion on that fateful morning meant that there would be nothing to stop the plane from changing course and slamming into the Dome. Apparently the Head of Pakistan's Intelligence Service was also present having been invited by a Congressman and Senator to continue discussions that they had with him a week earlier in Pakistan. So had the attackers done so that day your saying that we could have seen over 530 more people killed on that dark day plus the head of Pakistan's Intelligence Service. My gut feelings would be that following this that Pakistan would aid us in fighting them. After all the attack caused their own head of intelligence to die. Not helping to rid the world of them would make them seem weak to the wider world. But I was like nine when this happened so for all I know maybe they helped. I have never looked into this besides videos of peoples POV's and the fallout afterwards. |
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Post by halferking on Jul 24, 2021 23:46:41 GMT
It comes from transcripts of conversations between Air Traffic Control, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Federal Aviation Authority, American Airlines and Encyclopaedia Britannica. The testimony comes from people present at the Capitol and is from the book The Only Plane in the Sky: An Oral History of 9/11. It seems, from testimony, that the call to evacuate came after the attack on the Pentagon. According to the Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee a eerie calmness had descended over the building. There were no alarms, no panicking just stunned silence. The Chair of the House Intelligence Committee rushed to the Speaker's Office and called on the Speaker to issue the call to evacuate. The Speaker agreed, but said on the way out he wanted to open the House for a quick session and a prayer. It was 09:50 and the Parliamentarian said that the House could not be opened because the call had been made for 10am. During that brief exchange the Speaker's security detail rushed in and grabbed the Speaker. The Congressman said no we're doing this now. A quick prayer was scribbled down and read out and the session was brought to a swift end. Apparently the Fire Alarms were triggered and Capitol Police rushed through the building telling everyone to evacuate. The Chief Clerk of the House Judiciary Committee states that at the time the best plan that security had in place was a response to a fire... The plan was just that - Police Officers telling people to evacuate going from Office to Office. 535 people were stood on the lawn in front of the building not knowing what to do. It seems that some decided to leave others were taken to the Capitol Police building. Although there was no plan to deal with a terrorist attack against the Capitol a system was immediately initiated to ensure that the Leadership of the US was kept in tact with some being rushed to Mount Weather and a facility called Raven Rock, built as a backup Pentagon. What is bizarre is that the only information being fed to the leadership including the President and VP was what CNN was reporting. At 6pm the leadership at Mount Weather began to return to the Capitol. It was then that some had learned of Flight UA93 and the thought was that the terrorists intended target was the Capitol. From the bits that I have read - Flight AA77 travelled undetected for 36 minutes to Washington DC. 535 people at the Capitol that morning Senators, Representatives, the Speaker and staff. The chaos and confusion on that fateful morning meant that there would be nothing to stop the plane from changing course and slamming into the Dome. Apparently the Head of Pakistan's Intelligence Service was also present having been invited by a Congressman and Senator to continue discussions that they had with him a week earlier in Pakistan. So had the attackers done so that day your saying that we could have seen over 530 more people killed on that dark day plus the head of Pakistan's Intelligence Service. My gut feelings would be that following this that Pakistan would aid us in fighting them. After all the attack caused their own head of intelligence to die. Not helping to rid the world of them would make them seem weak to the wider world. But I was like nine when this happened so for all I know maybe they helped. I have never looked into this besides videos of peoples POV's and the fallout afterwards. In OTL the head of the Pakistan's Intelligence Service was quickly evacuated. Osama bin Laden was found living in a compound in Abbottabad Pakistan in 2011. If the Head of the Intelligence Service was killed on 9/11 I don't think it would have taken approximately 10 years for US SEAL Team to locate him and put the bar-steward down. Islamabad initially denied that bin Laden was in Pakistan let alone allegations that bin Laden was relying on support network in country. In 2011 the former President of Pakistan, Pervez Musharraf, admitted to ABC News that it is possible that rogue elements in Pakistan's Inter-Service Intelligence Agencies and Military could have been helping bin Laden. Having read Cornell Law School information on emergency powers there is some legal/constitutional uncertainty around the President's ability to exercise emergency powers as the US Constitution does not specifically mention such use, but it seems that a President can use emergency powers if Congress grants such use or if the President has a legal right to invoke emergency powers and that seems to be determined on a case by case basis. So given the complexities revolving around who does what in the US there could be some confusion over whether the President can exercise emergency powers without a fully functioning Government adding more confusion to an already complex fast paced emergency. I don't think there would be a break down in society because of the Governors have the ability to drawn upon emergency powers. |
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