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Post by american2006 on Jul 21, 2021 21:48:07 GMT
One of the biggest effects of this worse 911 is that the US will be looking for blood afterwards much more than we did OTL. Though I'm unsure how much sooner 93 could have taken off. But so long as news couldn't get to them I think nobody would try anything. It was knowing the nation was being attacked that made them act. I pity people of Middle Eastern ethnicity. I have no doubt we will see a rise in hate crimes following the attacks. I take it everything is the same. It's just flight 93 that hits its goal and thus they kill over 3000 people that day. Yes, and blood will be sought when I bring this TL off hiatus. However, at the moment, Congress is dead so there is no ability to declare war. As for Middle Easterners, life is gonna get real bad real quick. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jul 22, 2021 7:13:04 GMT
One of the biggest effects of this worse 911 is that the US will be looking for blood afterwards much more than we did OTL. Though I'm unsure how much sooner 93 could have taken off. But so long as news couldn't get to them I think nobody would try anything. It was knowing the nation was being attacked that made them act. I pity people of Middle Eastern ethnicity. I have no doubt we will see a rise in hate crimes following the attacks. I take it everything is the same. It's just flight 93 that hits its goal and thus they kill over 3000 people that day. Yes, and blood will be sought when I bring this TL off hiatus. However, at the moment, Congress is dead so there is no ability to declare war. As for Middle Easterners, life is gonna get real bad real quick. It will be another Pearl Harbor for sure. It'll be horrible as not only Middle Easterns would be racially attacked but also other people of color such as Africans, Pacific Islanders, and Indians. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 9:22:38 GMT
The issue, as said before, is that Congress would not be “dead”.
Not only were there members absent from the Capitol on that day, but the aircraft bound for DC went down at 1002 over Pennsylvania, 20 minutes flight time away.
If you want an earlier event, you need an earlier flight. That starts the butterflies. Even then, as said before, your timings don’t work due to the actual timetable of evacuation.
Lordroel gave you a link to the exact first person account of what was done, when and why. They were not simply sitting around engaged in business as usual.
You cannot get the outcomes you want from the current set of facts.
At all.
It is akin to having the US Pacific Fleet’s carriers hit as the first targets of the Kido Butai, even though the nearest one got to the attack was Halsey coming in on December 8th.
The bar is set extremely high for a very well known event where the timetable is very well known; and timing is the key issue.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jul 22, 2021 9:43:22 GMT
The issue, as said before, is that Congress would not be “dead”. Not only were there members absent from the Capitol on that day, but the aircraft bound for DC went down at 1002 over Pennsylvania, 20 minutes flight time away. If you want an earlier event, you need an earlier flight. That starts the butterflies. Even then, as said before, your timings don’t work due to the actual timetable of evacuation. Lordroel gave you a link to the exact first person account of what was done, when and why. They were not simply sitting around engaged in business as usual. You cannot get the outcomes you want from the current set of facts. At all. It is akin to having the US Pacific Fleet’s carriers hit as the first targets of the Kido Butai, even though the nearest one got to the attack was Halsey coming in on December 8th. The bar is set extremely high for a very well known event where the timetable is very well known; and timing is the key issue. I think you mean that if UA93 departed on sched rather than 40 minutes late? That 40 minutes would mean that by the UA93 was airborne, passengers already knew the attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 10:14:45 GMT
What I mean is that if he wants his postulated hit at 0956, it would not be UA93.
If it takes off at 0801 rather than 0842, then the takeover is pushed to to 0830 or thereabouts. It takes its turnaround at 0835. From there, it is 28 minutes to Stonycreek PA, or 0903. That then brings it over DC by 0930-0935 not 0956. At that point, VP Cheney is in the bunker in any case. Furthermore, with an inbound, it is not particularly likely that the Congressional leadership would go through with a prayer, but rather, evacuate.
Therefore, even if we grant that it takes off on schedule, it doesn’t get the outcome desired.
In neither case does it hit at 0956.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 22, 2021 11:20:00 GMT
What I mean is that if he wants his postulated hit at 0956, it would not be UA93. If it takes off at 0801 rather than 0842, then the takeover is pushed to to 0830 or thereabouts. It takes its turnaround at 0835. From there, it is 28 minutes to Stonycreek PA, or 0903. That then brings it over DC by 0930-0935 not 0956. At that point, VP Cheney is in the bunker in any case. Furthermore, with an inbound, it is not particularly likely that the Congressional leadership would go through with a prayer, but rather, evacuate. Therefore, even if we grant that it takes off on schedule, it doesn’t get the outcome desired. In neither case does it hit at 0956. Is they anything that they could attack that is closer to them? It seems clear at this point that going for anything in DC is undoable with the timetable we know no matter how much sooner 93 takes off. So is there anything they could go for that would work? A US base or navel yard? |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 11:34:21 GMT
It took off from Newark. There is plenty that is within range.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 22, 2021 13:19:41 GMT
It took off from Newark. There is plenty that is within range. The attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon make sense but what could 93 go for that would be just as impactful? They would want it to hit something that would kill as many people as possible but also ensure that it harms the US in as big a way as they can. I would think trying to hit a dam or a nuclear reactor/power plant. If I were to guess I would go for a nuclear reactor/power plant. The affects of such an attack would be costly to the nation and would forever color our views on them. But if they can hit a sizeable dam and cause it to fail the loss of life could be higher. |
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jul 22, 2021 13:22:50 GMT
It took off from Newark. There is plenty that is within range. The attacks on the twin towers and the pentagon make sense but what could 93 go for that would be just as impactful? They would want it to hit something that would kill as many people as possible but also ensure that it harms the US in as big a way as they can. I would think trying to hit a dam or a nuclear reactor/power plant. If I were to guess I would go for a nuclear reactor/power plant. The affects of such an attack would be costly to the nation and would forever color our views on them. But if they can hit a sizeable dam and cause it to fail the loss of life could be higher. I guess the UA93 hijackers did not know where to find a nuclear reactor or power plant. Even attacking Norfolk Naval Base would be of less impact. |
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Post by american2006 on Jul 22, 2021 13:37:18 GMT
What I mean is that if he wants his postulated hit at 0956, it would not be UA93. If it takes off at 0801 rather than 0842, then the takeover is pushed to to 0830 or thereabouts. It takes its turnaround at 0835. From there, it is 28 minutes to Stonycreek PA, or 0903. That then brings it over DC by 0930-0935 not 0956. At that point, VP Cheney is in the bunker in any case. Furthermore, with an inbound, it is not particularly likely that the Congressional leadership would go through with a prayer, but rather, evacuate. Therefore, even if we grant that it takes off on schedule, it doesn’t get the outcome desired. In neither case does it hit at 0956. Perhaps if I had a flight take off from Baltimore en route to Portland, OR, at Circa 8:07 AM and hit the capital at circa 8:47 AM, that would be about 16 minutes earlier. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 14:09:56 GMT
If you change the flight, it starts to get very difficult to predict what would happen. Suppose that you do select a flight and people on board it were crucial to something later on? Very nebulous.
I really don't want to speculate on targets - I don't want to inadvertently end up on a watch list!
Even if you go for an earlier plane, you still aren't going to account for the entire Congress and Senate, as they weren't all there that day, nor are you going to have them sitting around sucking their thumbs.
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Post by SpaceOrbisHistory on Jul 22, 2021 14:19:27 GMT
If you change the flight, it starts to get very difficult to predict what would happen. Suppose that you do select a flight and people on board it were crucial to something later on? Very nebulous. I really don't want to speculate on targets - I don't want to inadvertently end up on a watch list! Even if you go for an earlier plane, you still aren't going to account for the entire Congress and Senate, as they weren't all there that day, nor are you going to have them sitting around sucking their thumbs. I guess we could go the easy way and say that the people who would've taken over 93 were stopped and thus it just goes about it's day as if nothing happened. September 11th 2001 is already going to be a dark day for Americans. One less plane isn't really going to do much of anything. We just don't have a movie about the plane and 33 people live to see another day. |
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belushitd
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Post by belushitd on Jul 22, 2021 14:21:18 GMT
Something to ponder.... On September 11, 2001, Donald J Trump's party affiliation was Democrat, having been changed from the Independent Party of New York in August. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Donald_Trump#:~:text=In%201999%2C%20Trump%20changed%20his,his%20party%20affiliation%20to%20Democratic. Somehow I don't think he'd get appointed as a Senator with an R after his name. Also, I've been trying to figure out how one goes about finding out who was physically present in Congress the morning of 9/11 without searching through each Congresscritter's individual schedule. Its... not a trivial exercise. Belushi TD |
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Post by american2006 on Jul 22, 2021 14:55:39 GMT
If you change the flight, it starts to get very difficult to predict what would happen. Suppose that you do select a flight and people on board it were crucial to something later on? Very nebulous. I really don't want to speculate on targets - I don't want to inadvertently end up on a watch list! Even if you go for an earlier plane, you still aren't going to account for the entire Congress and Senate, as they weren't all there that day, nor are you going to have them sitting around sucking their thumbs. While that is true, it's possible that if the Capitol attack is before the Twin Towers and the Pentagon, it could work for a timeline's sake. And I do understand it wouldn't account for the entirety of the House and Senate, I just haven't been able to find the rolecall form from 9/11 |
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Post by simon darkshade on Jul 22, 2021 14:57:26 GMT
As Belushi says above, there is the solution of doing the manual research.
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