eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Apr 2, 2021 16:45:10 GMT
Let's assume that Napoleon at the apex of his power explictly restores the Carolingian Empire in a modern form, as an imperial confederation of Western and Central Europe, and crowns himself the Emperor of the French, Germans, and Italians. Germany and Italy are reorganized into federal states broadly similar to OTL Kaiserreich or the proposals for an Italian Confederation during the Risorgimento. Napoleon's relatives and aides, or loyal native princes, take the thrones of the surviving German and Italian states. France, Germany, and Italy form a proto-EU confederation with the House of Bonaparte on the throne of all three states. Austria and Prussia are dismantled and partitioned between Bavaria, Saxony, Westphalia, North Italy, Poland, and Hungary. France annexes enough land to get Wallonia and its 'natural borders' on the Rhine and the Alps, but otherwise avoids to absorb large chunks of German and Italian territory. The Flanders and the Netherlands become part of Germany. Switzerland is partitioned between France, Germany, and Italy. Poland and Hungary become independent as client states of the Napoleonic Empire with loyal members of their high nobility on their thrones. Denmark-Norway and Sweden become client states of the Napoleonic Empire as well.
Napoleon engages in a complex but successful balancing act between giving the Germans and the Italians enough influence that they don't feel like a colony but not that much that the French get resentful. Success in this endeavor ensures the new order develops a sufficiently solid and widespread degree of support among the European peoples to be stable without much need for coercion. He lets Spain stay an unreliable but cowed ally with the Bourbon on the throne, at least until liberalism and European influence have penetrated Spanish society enough to destabilize the conservative status quo. He leverages what Spanish support he can harness to invade and occupy Portugal, which is annexed by Spain. When sufficiently favorable conditions develop, he (or his successor) deposes the Bourbon with much less resistance than OTL and makes Spain the fourth member state of the Napoleonic Empire. Without Spain being in a state of rebellion, Britain suffers a decisive defeat in the Peninsular War. Napoleon plays a waiting game with Russia, refusing to take the bait of provocations. If and when the Russians declare war on their own initiative, he fights a defensive maneuver war in Eastern Europe where he enjoys a favorable logistical situation and decisively defeats the Russian army with an intact Grande Armee just like he did in 1805-07. In the peace treaty he forces Russia to cede Finland and Latvia-Estonia to Sweden, as well as Lithuania and the Western Krai/Kresy to Poland. Hungary annexes the Danubian Principalities and Bessarabia.
If instead Russia keeps the peace and avoids overt acts of hostility against Europe, Napoleon offers the Russians cooperation to dismantle and partition the Ottoman Empire and the Tsar gladly accepts. Thanks to combined Euro-Russian resouces, the partition of the Ottoman Empire takes place without excessive difficulty, despite logistic troubles and Muslim resistance. Britain stays hostile for a while to the new European order, but with Western and Central Europe firmly under Napoleonic control and Russia defeated or cowed into collaboration, it is powerless to influence events in the continent. Over time, EU-style economic union of the continent fosters budding but vigorous industrialization of Western and Central Europe. This allows to replace British goods with European ones and the Continental System with a stiff tariff that works much more efficiently at excluding British trade from the European market. The Empire harnesses its considerable resources to build up its naval power to be the equal or superior of the Royal Navy, making a British blockade of Europe ever more difficult to enforce and an invasion of the British Isles potentially feasible. Growing strength of the European Navy allows it to gain the upper hand in the Baltic and the Mediterranean, contest the Atlantic and the North Sea from a position of strength, and stage successful landings to conquer Sicily and Sardinia. Eventually, the British ruling elites come to acknowledge the necessity of making peace with Europe. On their part, the Russian elites understand they need to avoid further military challenges to Europe as long as it stays strong and united.
Napoleon marries a Bavarian princess (say Augusta of Bavaria marries him instead of his stepson) and dedicates his late years to groom his son into a worthy successor, consolidate his life's work of uniting Europe, and implement liberal reforms (kinda like he did during the Hundred Days). He lives long enough to ensure a stable succession. Napoleon II and his son Joseph I continue the work of their great ancestor. The Empire eventually fulfils its gradual evolution into a EU-style liberal-democratic federation of the European peoples. Its outstanding success ensures liberalism and romanticism fail to identify ethnicity and language as the basis of national identity. They instead turn to support civic nationalism, a Pan-European identity, and an ideal of reviving the glory of Rome combined with the benefits of democracy and modernity. Over time, the client states of the Empire acknowledge the benefits of complete union and successfully petition to join the federation.
In a parallel development thanks to a second divergence during the American Revolution, the USA gradually unites North America under its system and evolves into a multicultural union. The parallel success stories of Europe and North America and their broadly similar systems further the global appeal of the liberal-democratic and federal model they jointly embody. Civic nationalism becomes the prevalent model of national identity. Napoleon goes in the history books with an unblemished and outstanding reputation, the hero and genius who brought unity, peace, prosperity, and the benefits of the French Revolution to Europe. Countless monuments across the continent honor him as the father of modern Europe.
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Post by halferking on Apr 2, 2021 23:46:01 GMT
I don't see Napoleon being successful. There were too many obstacles for him to overcome chief among them the continental system, which was an epic disaster. Yes it damaged British exports to Europe by up to 50%, but Great Britain was more than able to off-set any loses with a boost in exports to non-European countries. On the continent all the embargo did was to stop raw materials coming in from Great Britain. This lead to continental system counter measures being put in place to avoid economic collapse. Russia was a fair weather friend to France and could not be relied upon. The Bernadotte Family, installed as Kings of Sweden, couldn't be relied upon either.
The Revolution had taken its toll on France and depleted the Navy of money, ships and manpower. It would take at least a generation for Napoleon to construct a fleet capable of taking on the Royal Navy. Besides The State's resources would be and were concentrated on the land army as it takes a huge deal of effort to keep peace over what is effectively occupied land. That and the fact the British, even when outnumbered, were skilled enough and had the technology to defeat a combined Franco-Spanish fleet!
Napoleon could hold on to land, but it would make more sense if he held on to the land he gained under the Tilsit Treaties rather than to try and take the Iberian Peninsula and then he could corral Italy and central European states in to client states. I think he would need to make peace with Great Britain and open trade up. Russia had been at the forefront of the 'sanctions busting' efforts so offering them greater access to the Black Sea (ice free ports) and ending the trade embargo against Great Britain makes sense - keep Moscow on side and that keeps your eastern border relatively stable. I can't see Napoleon wanting to jeopardise the tentative peace with Great Britain, but he may take them on in the colonies.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Apr 3, 2021 9:30:17 GMT
I don't see Napoleon being successful. There were too many obstacles for him to overcome chief among them the continental system, which was an epic disaster. Yes it damaged British exports to Europe by up to 50%, but Great Britain was more than able to off-set any loses with a boost in exports to non-European countries. On the continent all the embargo did was to stop raw materials coming in from Great Britain. This lead to continental system counter measures being put in place to avoid economic collapse. Russia was a fair weather friend to France and could not be relied upon. The Bernadotte Family, installed as Kings of Sweden, couldn't be relied upon either. I am skeptical myself the Continental System was a winning strategy for Napoleon. Apparently it caused him more problems than it solved. Since this topic is all about him making winning choices in a manner that leads to united Europe since the early 19th century, we can certainly explore alternatives about that too. My scenario does include the idea of dropping the CS as a bad idea and replacing with a strategy that fosters an EU-style continental economic union, industrialization of Western and Central Europe backed by a tariff system, and replacement of British goods with European ones in the continental market. If history of trade and industrialization is any guide, it suggests this kind of strategy would be much more successful than the CS blockade at hitting the British economically without too much domestic resistance in Europe and fostering independence of Europe from their trade. If necessary, I can reword the scenario to state Napoleon has this kind of insight from the beginning and drops the CS notion, instead pursuing the above strategy. However, I am persuaded that even with no CS, Napoleon should wipe out Portugal, since it was too pro-British. His key mistake in the Iberian theater was to enforce a regime change in Spain when Spanish society was not yet ready to accept it. If subsequent history of Spain with various liberal revolutions is any guide, things would have been very different in a decade or two. Yes, Russia was at best a fair-weather friend, at worst a potential aggressor. However, it does not matter much. Dropping enforcement of the CS would certainly tone down reasons for Russian hostility somewhat. Otherwise, the scenario describes what I deem a winning strategy to deal with Alexandrine Russia. If it stays not overly hostile, lure it into further collaboration by offering cooperation to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. If it looks like it is turning hostile, pick a defensive strategy and fight the Russian army in Eastern Europe where the logistic situation is favorable to Napoleon. He beat them w/o much difficulty this way in 1805-07, he can do it again with ease with an intact and well-supplied Grande Armee. TTL neo-Carolingian strategy is precisely aimed to turn the Napoleonic Empire into an EU-style system that can draw a sufficient degree of support from the Western and Central European peoples to endure without much need for military coercion (by 19th century standards) once the Austrian and Prussian backstabbers are wiped out and pacification sets in. Over time, the Pan-European Grande Armee is only going to require the resources necessary to keep Britain and Russia at bay, discourage radical revolutionaries, oversee the dismantlement of the Ottoman Empire (alone or in cooperation with Russia) and support colonial expansion. Yes, building up a fleet capable of taking on the Royal Navy is going to be a serious effort, but far from impossible or exhausting if you harness the pooled resources of industrializing Western and Central Europe. It is going to be necessary if the British still refuse to make peace on Napoleon’s terms once Western and Central Europe are pacified and Russia is cowed, defeated, or won over. Napoleonic Europe cannot forever tolerate a British blockade of its trade with the rest of the world. I am not sure how much time it might take, but I am confident that Napoleonic Europe can out-build Britain in the naval field and no matter how skilled the British sailors, they cannot realistically defeat a combined Franco-German-Italian-Spanish fleet. England/Britain alone has never been able of doing that in the last two millennia. The technology gap is going to close and past a point, quantity has a quality all its own. In this scenario, he is doing exactly that. However, I am persuaded the Napoleonic order is never going to be truly stable and secure unless the Austrian and Prussian backstabbers are wiped out. Moreover, the OTL settlement was too awkward and unbalanced. The continental core of France, Germany, and Italy had to be rebuilt and bound together in a neo-Carolingian, EU-style system that ensures an adequate balance between imperial unity and all major actors feeling they have a decent place at the table. This is also necessary to defuse the potential threat of ethnic-linguistic nationalism down the line and re-orient the ideological trajectory in favor of civic nationalism and the growth of a Pan-European identity. The position of client states is more suitable to the periphery of Iberia, Poland, Hungary, and Scandinavia, at least until the influence of the core has changed them enough to make them suitable for, and accepting of, full political union. Keeping Russia on side by offering it favorable trade terms and cooperation for expansion against the Ottoman Empire is potentially quite doable. It depends on whether the Tsar can accept the demise of Austria and Prussia in good grace and Napoleonic hegemony of Western and Central Europe as an inevitable fact. I am downright skeptical the British are going to make peace on these terms unless they are forced to, or at least they come to acknowledge the new European order is here to stay and beyond their ability to destabilize or undermine. Yes, once Britain is forced to make peace one way or another, and Napoleonic Europe has rebuilt its naval power, the latter is going to become a mighty rival for London in the colonial field. Almost surely the British are going to keep India, and ITTL they lost Canada in the ARW, but East Asia and Southeast Asia are going to be hotly contested. One way or another, the British are going to be expelled fom the Med. Their control of Gibraltar and Malta has its days numbered against an industrializing, united Europe that is building up its naval power. The region is going to become an European lake or possibly split between European and Russian spheres of influence. North Africa is the natural first target for European colonialism, and with the pooled demographic resources of Western and Central Europe, the Napoleonic Empire has the means to engage in extensive settler colonization to Europeanize the region. For various reasons, the Ottoman Empire is going to be incompatible with the new European order. It shall be inevitably expelled from the Balkans sooner rather than later, and in all likelihood dismantled and partitioned. It only remains to be seen if its undertakers shall be Europe, Russia, or both acting in concert.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 3, 2021 11:25:59 GMT
If you want to 'debate' with eurofed, you have to accept he will have an autocratic European empire established by a military dictator regardless. There is little point mentioning issues as he will talk over them and declare they can be overcome with a wave of his hand. For instance that a slightly later occupation of Spain and effective annexation to his empire will win the support of liberals there, which as history shows it won't. The Spanish will fight to preserve their national independent regardless of promised 'reforms' as will other populations. You will notice that in response to talk about making peace with Britain he replies referring to Britain being 'forced to make peace' i.e. on Napoleon's terms of overwhelming control. Similarly of wiping out long established dynasties like the Hapsburg's and Hohenzollern and the state of Portugal. Eurofed's states are always autocratic ones imposed by force and he refused to accept the opposition this will generate. Likewise Russia no matter what suggestions Napoleon will dangle about Constantinople won't accept the annexation of Germany to Napoleon's empire and the disposal of the powerful dynasties there as they will realise the threat it poses to them.
It doesn't help that the revolution Napoleon has since suppressed in France let the nationalist cat out of the bag. The Italians will accept French domination for a while - and it must be French as that's the state that is the core of the dynasties power - but even that will fade over time. The Germans and Spanish won't and probably neither will other groups such as the Hungarians. You can impose such domination by a single state either by massive slaughter or by offering a lot of autonomy and also economic and political opportunity to the conquered people. Neither Napoleon or Eurofed will seriously consider the 2nd option so such states are doomed to bloody collapse as Napoleon's hubris lead to OTL.
As you may have guessed Eurofed and me are old sparing partners and I don't generally reply to his threads now because I know its a waste of time. So by all means try and discussion points with him but I fear you will find it a futile activity.
Steve
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Post by halferking on Apr 3, 2021 17:14:38 GMT
If a French dominated continent is to thrive avoiding direct confrontation with Great Britain is a must, but Napoleon will have to break Europe of its British habit.
France could make use of her expansive colonial possessions for corn, cotton, wood and other raw materials. The British Empire worked by the colonies sending raw materials to Great Britain and Great Britain sent the finished product back to the colonies. France could do something similar this would reduce Europe's reliance on Great Britain. To deal with Great Britain Napoleon would have to turn to diplomacy. Give London something she wants - Hanover - with guaranteed unrestricted access to the continent Great Britain will be subdued and would more than likely not turn to Portugal.
Napoleon would have to take control of the Italian and German states to form a core block. However I am unsure as to how imperialism could be converted to an EU style nation.
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Post by halferking on Apr 3, 2021 17:17:48 GMT
If you want to 'debate' with eurofed , you have to accept he will have an autocratic European empire established by a military dictator regardless. There is little point mentioning issues as he will talk over them and declare they can be overcome with a wave of his hand. For instance that a slightly later occupation of Spain and effective annexation to his empire will win the support of liberals there, which as history shows it won't. The Spanish will fight to preserve their national independent regardless of promised 'reforms' as will other populations. You will notice that in response to talk about making peace with Britain he replies referring to Britain being 'forced to make peace' i.e. on Napoleon's terms of overwhelming control. Similarly of wiping out long established dynasties like the Hapsburg's and Hohenzollern and the state of Portugal. Eurofed's states are always autocratic ones imposed by force and he refused to accept the opposition this will generate. Likewise Russia no matter what suggestions Napoleon will dangle about Constantinople won't accept the annexation of Germany to Napoleon's empire and the disposal of the powerful dynasties there as they will realise the threat it poses to them.
It doesn't help that the revolution Napoleon has since suppressed in France let the nationalist cat out of the bag. The Italians will accept French domination for a while - and it must be French as that's the state that is the core of the dynasties power - but even that will fade over time. The Germans and Spanish won't and probably neither will other groups such as the Hungarians. You can impose such domination by a single state either by massive slaughter or by offering a lot of autonomy and also economic and political opportunity to the conquered people. Neither Napoleon or Eurofed will seriously consider the 2nd option so such states are doomed to bloody collapse as Napoleon's hubris lead to OTL.
As you may have guessed Eurofed and me are old sparing partners and I don't generally reply to his threads now because I know its a waste of time. So by all means try and discussion points with him but I fear you will find it a futile activity.
Steve
Thank you for the heads up. I am willing to debate with anyone.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 3, 2021 17:45:30 GMT
If a French dominated continent is to thrive avoiding direct confrontation with Great Britain is a must, but Napoleon will have to break Europe of its British habit. France could make use of her expansive colonial possessions for corn, cotton, wood and other raw materials. The British Empire worked by the colonies sending raw materials to Great Britain and Great Britain sent the finished product back to the colonies. France could do something similar this would reduce Europe's reliance on Great Britain. To deal with Great Britain Napoleon would have to turn to diplomacy. Give London something she wants - Hanover - with guaranteed unrestricted access to the continent Great Britain will be subdued and would more than likely not turn to Portugal. Napoleon would have to take control of the Italian and German states to form a core block. However I am unsure as to how imperialism could be converted to an EU style nation.
I think the deeper issue is that Britain - nor any other major power - will be happy with such a dominant power in Europe, especially not one maintained and expanded by military force. The big difference with Britain its its combination of an island location and powerful navy made it largely secure against French power. Coupled with this was a powerful economy that meant it could maintain both its own forces and also fund and otherwise aid other powers in opposition to Napoleon.
On your last point the only way I could see would be if the Napoleonic empire was stable enough to last several generations and during that period transit from a centralised military state dominated by the French to a more egalitarian one that accepted different cultural interests and tolerated other viewpoints. Difficult to see this happening but not impossible.
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Post by halferking on Apr 3, 2021 18:46:42 GMT
If a French dominated continent is to thrive avoiding direct confrontation with Great Britain is a must, but Napoleon will have to break Europe of its British habit. France could make use of her expansive colonial possessions for corn, cotton, wood and other raw materials. The British Empire worked by the colonies sending raw materials to Great Britain and Great Britain sent the finished product back to the colonies. France could do something similar this would reduce Europe's reliance on Great Britain. To deal with Great Britain Napoleon would have to turn to diplomacy. Give London something she wants - Hanover - with guaranteed unrestricted access to the continent Great Britain will be subdued and would more than likely not turn to Portugal. Napoleon would have to take control of the Italian and German states to form a core block. However I am unsure as to how imperialism could be converted to an EU style nation.
I think the deeper issue is that Britain - nor any other major power - will be happy with such a dominant power in Europe, especially not one maintained and expanded by military force. The big difference with Britain its its combination of an island location and powerful navy made it largely secure against French power. Coupled with this was a powerful economy that meant it could maintain both its own forces and also fund and otherwise aid other powers in opposition to Napoleon.
On your last point the only way I could see would be if the Napoleonic empire was stable enough to last several generations and during that period transit from a centralised military state dominated by the French to a more egalitarian one that accepted different cultural interests and tolerated other viewpoints. Difficult to see this happening but not impossible.
I think that as long as France stays in its lane Britain wouldn't be too bothered. The British had other issues to keep them occupied and would welcome a stable-ish peace on the continent that would free up resorces. The Russians could possibly act as a counter balance to keep Napoleon in check.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Apr 3, 2021 20:13:50 GMT
I am not sure if Napoleon really wanted the title of Holy Roman Emperor, since the prestige of the title has declined. Moreover, Francis II had dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in order to prevent Napoleon from taking that very same title, and its dissolution had actually worked to Napoleon's advantage since he could create new duchies and entities at will.
While the Continental System was damaging to British trade, didn't the French tried import substitution? While I knew that might have failed, I would have thought that Napoleon could have seriously attempted to perfect import substitution as a way of creating his empire's manufacturing capabilities, like what the Germans did later on when the German Empire arose.
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Post by halferking on Apr 4, 2021 8:31:01 GMT
I am not sure if Napoleon really wanted the title of Holy Roman Emperor, since the prestige of the title has declined. Moreover, Francis II had dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in order to prevent Napoleon from taking that very same title, and its dissolution had actually worked to Napoleon's advantage since he could create new duchies and entities at will. While the Continental System was damaging to British trade, didn't the French tried import substitution? While I knew that might have failed, I would have thought that Napoleon could have seriously attempted to perfect import substitution as a way of creating his empire's manufacturing capabilities, like what the Germans did later on when the German Empire arose.
France lacked the capacity to capitalise on her colonial possessions. Great Britain effectively controlled the shipping lanes and offered continental Europe raw materials.
The American President, Thomas A Jefferson, also added to French woes by demanding that the US Congress pass the Embargo Act 1807. This in combination with the Continental System further restricted imports.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 4, 2021 15:48:23 GMT
I am not sure if Napoleon really wanted the title of Holy Roman Emperor, since the prestige of the title has declined. Moreover, Francis II had dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in order to prevent Napoleon from taking that very same title, and its dissolution had actually worked to Napoleon's advantage since he could create new duchies and entities at will. While the Continental System was damaging to British trade, didn't the French tried import substitution? While I knew that might have failed, I would have thought that Napoleon could have seriously attempted to perfect import substitution as a way of creating his empire's manufacturing capabilities, like what the Germans did later on when the German Empire arose.
I think this was the period where sugar beet 1st started being developed as an alternative to sugar cane as Britain pretty much had a monopoly on the supply, especially after the victory at Trafalgar ended any realistic challenge to Britain at sea and enabled a new mopping up of colonies belonging to France and its subject nations. [The big exception being the Spanish ones as of course after the French invasion prompted the rebellion against his brother Joseph as puppet king they became indirect allies and Britain had trade access to them anyway, being the only power able to supply them with manufactured goods.] There were probably other things that were tried to find alternatives to British controlled imports smuggled into occupied Europe.
Do remember reading somewhere that there was a degree of shift of balance in France economically with some of the eastern regions prospering as they were encouraged to develop while the western areas which depended heavily on coastal and foreign maritime trade were devastated by the blockade.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Apr 4, 2021 16:20:38 GMT
If a French dominated continent is to thrive avoiding direct confrontation with Great Britain is a must, but Napoleon will have to break Europe of its British habit. I suppose here you mean Europe's economic dependance on British manufactured goods and extra-European commodities. To replace the former, industrialization of the continent is required. It is gonna take some time, but it is gonna happen sooner rather than later on its own. Moreover, appropriate policies may accelerate its pace considerably. If the economic history of industrialized countries in the last two centuries is any guide, creation of a vast free-trade zone across Western-Central Europe and establishment of an external tariff system is almost guaranteed to give a powerful boost to industrial and trade development of the region, even more so as it concerns the first industrialization wave. Therefore, what alt-Napoleon needs to do is to steal the economic playbook of the EEC/EU and the early USA: eliminate all barriers to trade within its empire (at the very least for the Franco-German-Italian core, optimally also including as many client states as possible), create a common money, establish a tariff system for external (i.e. British) goods. As a rule, Continental System-style embargo of goods tends to create strong resistance if they cannot be easily replaced by domestic production. Protectionist tariffs are usually accepted more easily. As it concerns extra-European trade, the British blockade obviously needs to be removed one way or another. Personally I tend to be quite skeptical Britain would be swayed by diplomacy alone without onerous concessions (end of Napoleonic hegemony in Europe) that would be wholly inacceptable to a victorious France. It had not happened for two decades (with an ephemeral and soon-gone exception) when Britain had been the most persistent and impacable enemy of France. It might happen eventually, but in all likelihood it needs to do the effect of creeping exhaustion and realization Britain cannot really do anything more to dismantle the Napoleonic empire. Austria and Prussia are gone; Spain, Poland, Hungary, and the Nordic states stick to France's side as fair-weather friends if nothing else; Russia sticks to the Tilsit deal sweetened by ongoing dismantlement of the Ottoman Empire and lack of the CS or has been defeated again in a reverse 1812, Napoleon keeps a seemingly unshakable grip on Western and Central Europe. There is pretty much no one left able and willing to take British money to make war against Bonaparte, and Britain has never been able to win a land Europe w/o the support of another great power. If this status quo looks unshakable in the foreseeable future, creeping war exhaustion (noticeable in the British Isles in 1811-12), frustration, and disillusionement may well drive the British ruling elites to accept a peace based on strategic facts on the ground. Britain recognizes Napoleonic hegemony in Western-Central Europe, annexes French and Dutch colonies it had occupied as a consolation prize, and re-focuses its gaze on its imperial interests outside Europe (ITTL Canada got lost in the ARW). Napoleon gets the breathing space he craved to focus on consolidation and build-up of his empire and domestic reforms. Once peace is restored, Napoleonic Europe can restore normal trade relations with the rest of the world and access to extra-European commodities, even if the colonies are lost. Giving up Hanover would be wholly unfeasible for the Napoleonic empire, first b/c it would create a nasty strategic and economic hole in its core, second b/c it would antagonize German public opinion. It would also be unnecessary since the British Parliament and the rest of the ruling elites outside the Royal familycould not care less about the personal union with Hanover. They had long come to realize territorial possessions in the continent were a burden and went out of their way to avoid acquiring them. When the personal union dissolved in 1837 and Prussia swallowed Hanover in 1866, nobody in the British Parliament or government raised an eyebrow. The days of the Hundred Year War had long gone. By the 19th century, the British ruling class had entirely realigned its imperialist ambitions outside of Europe. Now, what may easily happen when creeping disillusionement, frustration, and exhaustion drive Britain to the peace table on the basis of the facts on the ground is the British keep the French and Dutch colonies they had occupied during the wars as a consolation prize and a way to keep the newborn hegemony out of the colonial playground, at least for a while. If you ask me, a good template for a successful evolution in an monarchical proto-EU seems to be gradual liberalization of the political system combined with giving the member nations enough autonomy in domestic matters and influence in the imperial government they don't feel like a colony. As it concerns the former, Napoleon in his late years expressed the wish to give his empire a more liberal character once the wars had been successfully concluded; such a purpose seems to have been genuine according the more liberal character of the Constitution of 1815. You just have TTL Napoleon to be true to these purposes as well and his son to follow in his footsteps. As it concerns the latter, it seems realtively easy to do and a natural evolution if TTL Napoleon embraces the notion of restoring the Carolingian Empire as a modern federation. Reorganize Germany and Italy as federations; bind France, Germany, and Italy in a confederation and a real union with Napoleon on the throne; ensure loyal members of the German and Italian elites run things at home and have a suitable power share in the central government. Broadly speaking, remake the Napoleonic Empire into a monarchical, semi-authoritarian version of the USA that gradually liberalizes. Let young Napoleon become more knowledgeable about the US political system, and decide the best settlement for Europe is an hybrid between America and the Roman/Carolingian precedent when he becomes master of Europe. This is even more justifiable since ITTL the American Revolution is more successful (it includes Canada) and US Canadiens may act as a cultural bridge. He may decide unification and stabilization of the continent requires him to act as a semi-authoritarian ruler and a conqueror for a while, and he may give his empire a more liberal character once his enemies are vanquished.
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eurofed
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Post by eurofed on Apr 4, 2021 17:08:26 GMT
I am not sure if Napoleon really wanted the title of Holy Roman Emperor, since the prestige of the title has declined. Moreover, Francis II had dissolved the Holy Roman Empire in order to prevent Napoleon from taking that very same title, and its dissolution had actually worked to Napoleon's advantage since he could create new duchies and entities at will. What has been dissolved may be restored in a modified form, esp. since Francis II's action was of rather dubious legality to begin with w/o the assent of the Imperial Diet. Napoleon may well decide to declare the dissolution, when combined with the dismantlement and partition of Austria and Prussia, was Francis II's de facto abdication and it left the HRE in a state of abeyance. He may use the same template he used for France that combined ancient regime and post-revolutionary sources to legitimize his rule of Germany and Italy. I.e. make the princes of the surviving German and Italian states elect him Holy Roman Emperor and King of the Germans and the Italians, and call up a constituent assembly. Make this assembly of German and Italian representatives approve unification and constitutional reform of Germany and Italy as federal states with the Bonaparte dynasty on the throne. Make the representatives of all three nations establish a union. Let the process be confirmed by plebiscites in France, Germany, and Italy. This was the road to take, and it is going to work with the right policies (creation of a Western and Central European economic and monetary union) if we look at the examples of the USA, the EU, Germany, and Italy. However, it is gonna take some time. Factories do not spring overnight, but, with the right economic incentives, they do in a few years, and may spread to cover the landscape in a decade or two.
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Post by halferking on Apr 4, 2021 19:20:17 GMT
Napoleon needs to tread careful with Great Britain and recognise that although he commands Europe he cannot hope to capitalise on his new found power as long as Great Britain is in opposition. Giving Hanover back to the Hanoverians would be a big sacrifice, but one worth making. Hanover was more a matter of honour for Great Britain than anything else. As I say France has to treat Europe's British addiction. Napoleon cannot hope to eliminate it overnight as that would annoy Russia and achieve nothing vis a vis Great Britain.
Internal politics Emperor Napoleon I was crowned King of Italy so he had that in the bag and he, I believe, had Friedrich Wilhelm II under his thumb so it was worth keeping him in place. I think you are right about Napoleon giving his vassal states some form of autonomy. The Emperor would or rather should learn from his own country's history - The Revolution had sparked the flame of nationalism in Europe. As a multi-national Empire Napoleon would have to understand that he could not enforce his rule on his subjects in other lands instead he should give them limited self-governing powers creating a Federation similar to the United States.
As for the Ottomans Napoleon could enter in to a treaty with Russia that should the Ottomans attack Russian territory The Napoleonic Federation would commit troops. This should be enough to keep Moscow on side and Constantinople in check.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Apr 5, 2021 11:24:16 GMT
Napoleon needs to tread careful with Great Britain and recognise that although he commands Europe he cannot hope to capitalise on his new found power as long as Great Britain is in opposition. Giving Hanover back to the Hanoverians would be a big sacrifice, but one worth making. Hanover was more a matter of honour for Great Britain than anything else. As I say France has to treat Europe's British addiction. Napoleon cannot hope to eliminate it overnight as that would annoy Russia and achieve nothing vis a vis Great Britain. Internal politics Emperor Napoleon I was crowned King of Italy so he had that in the bag and he, I believe, had Friedrich Wilhelm II under his thumb so it was worth keeping him in place. I think you are right about Napoleon giving his vassal states some form of autonomy. The Emperor would or rather should learn from his own country's history - The Revolution had sparked the flame of nationalism in Europe. As a multi-national Empire Napoleon would have to understand that he could not enforce his rule on his subjects in other lands instead he should give them limited self-governing powers creating a Federation similar to the United States. As for the Ottomans Napoleon could enter in to a treaty with Russia that should the Ottomans attack Russian territory The Napoleonic Federation would commit troops. This should be enough to keep Moscow on side and Constantinople in check.
Here I would have to agree with eurofed - suspect that would surprise both of us . There was a dynastical attachment but that was markedly weaker at this point. George III after all as a young king had emphasised his status as a British monarch to distance himself from his grandfather's attachment to the dynasty's German origins. Plus Napoleon was too great a threat to British independent while he had such power. Furthermore before his attack on Prussia in 1806-07 Hanover had been under Prussian occupation as part of an earlier deal between Paris and Berlin.
On the French side I can't see him agreeing to a permanent peace with Britain either or giving up land. Plus Hanover in British hands would give a clear route for British goods to flood into central Europe which would boost Britain's economy and cause problems for the French.
By this point, with rare exceptions, Russia was clearly stronger than the Ottomans so a defensive alliance with France against the Turks really offers them little. An offensive alliance, which would have been difficult logistically for the French might have done it possibly. Plus as part of his divide and rule tactics he established the Duchy of Warsaw after the defeat of Prussia and Russia in 1806-07 and given Poland's historical claims over much of the western provinces of the Russian empire this was a continued source of tension between the two empires.
However the continued threat that a continental Europe united under an expansionist military ruler and the handicap of Napoleon's continental system on Russia trade were the key issues.
Steve
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