ukron
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Post by ukron on Jan 15, 2021 16:25:05 GMT
1980s, the Engesa firm has since the 1950s specialized in the reprocessing of WWII vehicles for the private and public sector in Brazil, developing as the only Brazilian firm capable of producing armored vehicles. owes "pretty successes" like the EE-9 Cascavel machine gun and the EE-11 Urutu troop transport, which will prove their worth in the Iran-Iraq conflict. Engesa executives therefore decide to strike hard and to impose themselves on the Arab and South American markets, facing their European and American competitors, it is a risky bet for the company, which invests on its own funds !. The machine had to be modified several times due to problems regarding the main armament, in short two prototypes will be produced, one equipped with a 105mm cannon (Royal Ordonance L7) and the other with a 120mm ( Giat G1). Considered inexpensive, well-equipped and modern, this tank could have made Engesa's heyday ... especially since Saudi Arabia had preferred it to the French AMX-40 considering an order for its army. . Except that the Gulf War and access to Warsaw Pact surpluses killed the EE-T1 (and at the same time, the only Brazilian company to have designed a local tank)  |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 15, 2021 16:26:49 GMT
1980s, the Engesa firm has since the 1950s specialized in the reprocessing of WWII vehicles for the private and public sector in Brazil, developing as the only Brazilian firm capable of producing armored vehicles. owes "pretty successes" like the EE-9 Cascavel machine gun and the EE-11 Urutu troop transport, which will prove their worth in the Iran-Iraq conflict. Engesa executives therefore decide to strike hard and to impose themselves on the Arab and South American markets, facing their European and American competitors, it is a risky bet for the company, which invests on its own funds !. The machine had to be modified several times due to problems regarding the main armament, in short two prototypes will be produced, one equipped with a 105mm cannon (Royal Ordonance L7) and the other with a 120mm ( Giat G1). Considered inexpensive, well-equipped and modern, this tank could have made Engesa's heyday ... especially since Saudi Arabia had preferred it to the French AMX-40 considering an order for its army. . Except that the Gulf War and access to Warsaw Pact surpluses killed the EE-T1 (and at the same time, the only Brazilian company to have designed a local tank) Looks nice, Brazil should have done like Argentina, build their tanks, even if not outside costumer would buy it. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 15, 2021 16:58:36 GMT
1980s, the Engesa firm has since the 1950s specialized in the reprocessing of WWII vehicles for the private and public sector in Brazil, developing as the only Brazilian firm capable of producing armored vehicles. owes "pretty successes" like the EE-9 Cascavel machine gun and the EE-11 Urutu troop transport, which will prove their worth in the Iran-Iraq conflict. Engesa executives therefore decide to strike hard and to impose themselves on the Arab and South American markets, facing their European and American competitors, it is a risky bet for the company, which invests on its own funds !. The machine had to be modified several times due to problems regarding the main armament, in short two prototypes will be produced, one equipped with a 105mm cannon (Royal Ordonance L7) and the other with a 120mm ( Giat G1). Considered inexpensive, well-equipped and modern, this tank could have made Engesa's heyday ... especially since Saudi Arabia had preferred it to the French AMX-40 considering an order for its army. . Except that the Gulf War and access to Warsaw Pact surpluses killed the EE-T1 (and at the same time, the only Brazilian company to have designed a local tank) I had forgotten about this but as you say the Iraq war - making US arms more attractive politically - and the collapse of the Soviets meaning a lot of cheap lower level stuff flooding the market would be a serious, or by the sound of it fatal problem. A bold gamble by the firm but didn't pay off due to circumstances outside their control. 
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 15, 2021 20:03:01 GMT
Except that the Gulf War and access to Warsaw Pact surpluses killed the EE-T1 (and at the same time, the only Brazilian company to have designed a local tank)
Engesa was trying to sell the Osório to Saudi Arabia since 1984, and the Saudis sat on the decision to buy the tank(due to US pressure) since 1987 at least. The Brazilian Army had no money to buy the tank they helped develop(remember the 1980's are the 'Lost Decade' in Brazil); the deal was the Saudi Osórios would have a 10% mark-up in price to allow one Osório to be procured for the Brazilian Army out of every 10 sold to the Saudis.
The problem was the EE-T1 was a step too far for Engesa, which spent too much of its own money and engineering capacity on it; when the Saudi deal collapsed, Engesa only had a couple of products on the development pipeline(the EE-18 Sucuri II, a 6x6 wheeled tank destroyer, armed with a 105mm gun, and the Ogum(designated EE-T4, IIRC), a Wiesel 2-sized tracked vehicle, for the same purposes as the Wiesel), a portfolio of soon-to-be obsolescent products and no secure customers(remember Iraq was the Brazilian industry main customer in the Middle East). Only Avibras was able to (barely)survive the one-two punch of losing their main customer(which also stiffed the Brazilian companies after the Gulf War) and having the Saudis throw themselves wholeheartedly on the US' arms, and that was because Avibras could sell ordnance to the Saudis(selling ASTROS MRLs to Indonesia in the late 1990's-early 2000's also helped later on).
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 15, 2021 20:31:56 GMT
Except that the Gulf War and access to Warsaw Pact surpluses killed the EE-T1 (and at the same time, the only Brazilian company to have designed a local tank) Engesa was trying to sell the Osório to Saudi Arabia since 1984, and the Saudis sat on the decision to buy the tank(due to US pressure) since 1987 at least. The Brazilian Army had no money to buy the tank they helped develop(remember the 1980's are the 'Lost Decade' in Brazil); the deal was the Saudi Osórios would have a 10% mark-up in price to allow one Osório to be procured for the Brazilian Army out of every 10 sold to the Saudis. The problem was the EE-T1 was a step too far for Engesa, which spent too much of its own money and engineering capacity on it; when the Saudi deal collapsed, Engesa only had a couple of products on the development pipeline(the EE-18 Sucuri II, a 6x6 wheeled tank destroyer, armed with a 105mm gun, and the Ogum(designated EE-T4, IIRC), a Wiesel 2-sized tracked vehicle, for the same purposes as the Wiesel), a portfolio of soon-to-be obsolescent products and no secure customers(remember Iraq was the Brazilian industry main customer in the Middle East). Only Avibras was able to (barely)survive the one-two punch of losing their main customer(which also stiffed the Brazilian companies after the Gulf War) and having the Saudis throw themselves wholeheartedly on the US' arms, and that was because Avibras could sell ordnance to the Saudis(selling ASTROS MRLs to Indonesia in the late 1990's-early 2000's also helped later on).
That are a lot of Brazilian projects that never went somewhere. |
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 15, 2021 21:33:46 GMT
That are a lot of Brazilian projects that never went somewhere.
Brazil was trying to build(among other things) a military industry from the 1970's on, and the beginning of an industry sector usually is quite prolific with regards to new projects. When the sector failed, it took everything away with it.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 15, 2021 21:34:39 GMT
That are a lot of Brazilian projects that never went somewhere. Brazil was trying to build(among other things) a military industry from the 1970's on, and the beginning of an industry sector usually is quite prolific with regards to new projects. When the sector failed, it took everything away with it.
So it could have survived if Saudi Arabia just bought their tanks. |
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 15, 2021 22:20:01 GMT
So it could have survived if Saudi Arabia just bought their tanks. Probably, although I'd say it would have been a pretty close thing(like it was for Avibrás). It would have, at the very least, given Engesa time to develop other things that may have had a market(just like the EMB-120 Brasília gave Embraer enough time to develop the Embraer 145, which was what really saved the company). |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 16, 2021 10:30:23 GMT
So it could have survived if Saudi Arabia just bought their tanks. Probably, although I'd say it would have been a pretty close thing(like it was for Avibrás). It would have, at the very least, given Engesa time to develop other things that may have had a market(just like the EMB-120 Brasília gave Embraer enough time to develop the Embraer 145, which was what really saved the company). If Brazil had bought 300 of the EE-T1 MBTs then they would not have to field ageing M60 and Leopard 1 main battle tanks, both older designs then the EE-T1. |
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gral
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Post by gral on Jan 16, 2021 19:10:12 GMT
The Brazilian Army didn't have the money to buy Osórios, as much as they wanted them. In fact, the Army only got the M60s and the first Leopards(ex-Belgian Leopard 1Vs) years later, and because they were dirt cheap. Only in the mid-2000's the Army would have had the money to buy Osórios, and by then, Engesa was long gone.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Jan 17, 2021 15:41:12 GMT
If this tank was somehow successful, South American, African, Middle East, and to some degree Southeast Asian countries my purchase this. In OTL, since the Philippines got some A-29s from Embraer, the DND might look at this to restart the Army and Marine Corp's nonexistent tank fleet.
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Feb 5, 2021 16:25:31 GMT
Interesting, so there was some plan for MBT into Philippines Army?
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Feb 5, 2021 16:37:49 GMT
Interesting, so there was some plan for MBT into Philippines Army? It has been ongoing for decades now. However, the Philippine Army will get the Sabrah light tanks from Israel. |
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ukron
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Post by ukron on Feb 5, 2021 16:55:03 GMT
asianmilitaryreview.com/2021/02/elbits-sabrah-light-tank-for-un-named-asian-army/Elbit Systems of Israel announced on Tuesday 26 January 2021 it had received a contact from an un-named South East Asian country valued at US$170 million for its Sabrah “Light Tanks”. The requirement will provide the company’s Sabrah two man turret equipped with a 105mm gun integrated on to both the tracked ASCOD chassis and on the 8X8 Pandur 2 wheeled armoured vehicle. Both vehicles are from General Dynamics European Land Systems (GDELS) which has been collaborating with Elbit.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Feb 12, 2021 15:08:21 GMT
How Brazil Beat the Abrams, the Osório | Cursed by Design
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