Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 9, 2021 18:23:14 GMT
Well, my thinking was that they'd learn about it in such a manner as to remove all doubt that they're looking at a parallel universe. To that end, maybe a bunch of working TVs pop up in everyone's houses, which would help them access an internet-like database of information pertaining to our timeline. Perhaps there's also a joystick-like control plugged into each TV, which would function like a computer mouse so that Kaiserreich denizens can actually navigate the database in question. This being (alternate) 1936, I'd think that the mass-materialization of TVs across Germany's households would cause quite a stir. Doubly so, considering the hotchpotch of contents they show.
Well that would cause a lot of confusion definitely. Have a lot of people scratching their heads as well. Furthermore as new spread beyond Germany reaction in other countries could be interesting as well.
It certainly would, and the sheer scale on which it happens would make it impossible for the German authorities to cover up. What they do once they learn how to use their new TVs is the meat of the scenario, of course. For one, they'd be unhappy to find out what Germany became in a world where the Central Powers lost the Weltkrieg. Even after de-Nazification and becoming a foremost player in European politics, it's still not the dominant power that it is in the Kaiserreich universe. That, and the United States becoming and remaining global hegemon well into the twenty- first century would only confirm the sheer potential that their United States also has (if it ever gets its act together, that is). |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 10, 2021 18:51:51 GMT
'Americas Moved Near Afro-Eurasia In 3500 B.C.' Preferably with the former "hugging" or even conjoining with the latter, rather than violently smashing into it. Hand-waving serious geological and climactic upheaval for now, I wonder how the development of human civilization would proceed compared to the original? The potential for something far removed from what we're used to is there, I'm sure.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 11, 2021 9:41:02 GMT
'Americas Moved Near Afro-Eurasia In 3500 B.C.' Preferably with the former "hugging" or even conjoining with the latter, rather than violently smashing into it. Hand-waving serious geological and climactic upheaval for now, I wonder how the development of human civilization would proceed compared to the original? The potential for something far removed from what we're used to is there, I'm sure.
Well with no or a very small Atlantic that screws over the climate of much of Europe and eastern Americas. Not sure what the effect on western Africa would be but probably also a lot drier and possibly even hotter as there's no real ocean as a heat sink and source of water. Furthermore if the Atlantic is still there, but a tiny but spreading area your still going to have volcanic and earthquake activity.
Correspondingly with an even larger Pacific then storms there are likely to be larger and more destructive. Even so I would say the Far East and India is probably going to be a much better place for the development of civilisation than the Med region, let alone the rest of Europe. Although depending on the circumstances Egypt and parts of the eastern Med might be not too dissimilar to OTL. Possibly the western parts of the Americans, if exposed to more rain might have some regions that are more suited.
The big advantage for the people of the Americas, although they could suffer from disease and other problems but I suspect not as much as OTL is that they would have access to at least some old world animals and plants, which would give them a broader base for the development of stronger civilisations.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2021 18:56:41 GMT
'2017 Vladimir Putin SI To 1917 Vladimir Lenin'.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:00:22 GMT
'2017 Vladimir Putin SI To 1917 Vladimir Lenin'. First order of businesses, make sure a certain Georgian slips from the stairs. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2021 19:06:13 GMT
'2017 Vladimir Putin SI To 1917 Vladimir Lenin'. First order of businesses, make sure a certain Georgian slips from the stairs. I was also thinking about that. At the same time, I'm not sure that "Lenin" would want Mr. Trotsky to succeed him, given what a revolutionary zealot he was. Maybe he'll keep him around as long as there's a civil war to fight, before "replacing" him with somewhat more moderate. What are the the odds of "Lenin" implementing an NEP and appointing a successor who will see it through once the war ends, I wonder? |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:08:00 GMT
First order of businesses, make sure a certain Georgian slips from the stairs. I was also thinking about that. At the same time, I'm not sure that "Lenin" would want Mr. Trotsky to succeed him, given what a revolutionary zealot he was. Maybe he'll keep him around as long as there's a civil war to fight, before "replacing" him with somewhat more moderate. What are the the odds of "Lenin" implementing an NEP and appointing a successor who will see it through once the war ends, I wonder? A NEP. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2021 19:11:30 GMT
I was also thinking about that. At the same time, I'm not sure that "Lenin" would want Mr. Trotsky to succeed him, given what a revolutionary zealot he was. Maybe he'll keep him around as long as there's a civil war to fight, before "replacing" him with somewhat more moderate. What are the the odds of "Lenin" implementing an NEP and appointing a successor who will see it through once the war ends, I wonder? A NEP. Yeah. As in, the New Economic Policy that briefly existed during the USSR's infancy. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:22:57 GMT
1917 is still the year of the revolution, doubt Putin/Lenin will be able to do anything in that year. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 11, 2021 19:24:24 GMT
1917 is still the year of the revolution, doubt Putin/Lenin will be able to do anything in that year. I was talking about what he'd do once he wins and the last few stragglers have been purged. Well, assuming that Putin replicates Lenin's success insofar as crushing his opposition goes. |
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Post by lordroel on Jan 11, 2021 19:25:35 GMT
1917 is still the year of the revolution, doubt Putin/Lenin will be able to do anything in that year. I was talking about what he'd do once he wins and the last few stragglers have been purged. Well, assuming that Putin replicates Lenin's success insofar as crushing his opposition goes. Putin/Lenin will be a different person that OTL Lenin, how do we know he is able to succeeded. |
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 12, 2021 0:05:07 GMT
I was talking about what he'd do once he wins and the last few stragglers have been purged. Well, assuming that Putin replicates Lenin's success insofar as crushing his opposition goes. Putin/Lenin will be a different person that OTL Lenin, how do we know he is able to succeeded. I'm not guaranteeing that he will, though Putin's hindsight may help him pull through as the Russian Civil War rages. Of course, the possibility that he's also misinformed about or unaware of some important things could prove costly, or at least put more hurdles in his way over the years. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 12, 2021 11:25:58 GMT
I think Putin would have a decent chance of success as like Lenin he's basically a terrorist but with a lot more training and all that background knowledge of history. Assuming he knows enough about the period then key points for him would be: a) Making sure his coup in November goes ahead as OTL b) Possibly reining in Trotsky somewhat and making an earlier peace with Germany rather than the no peace no war approach they tried which enable the Germans to occupy such vast areas of the Russian empire. This would reduce somewhat the level of destruction and also loss of Bolshevik prestige so the following civil war could well be won quicker and more decisively. c) Avoiding the assassination attempt by Fanny_Kaplan which may have caused a lot of his later health decline. [Although there are other suspected causes of which the most likely seems to be syphilis according to his wiki entry, see Vladimir_Lenin#Declining_health, 2nd paragraph. [Possibly Putin/Lenin might have less affairs?]
In terms of differences from OTL I wonder if he might be less brutal and seek to use the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionaries for a little longer rather than quickly establish an outright dictatorship? Suspect he would still do the 1st purges against the kulaks both because I would expect food shortages to still occur and their a suitable target for the sort of divide and rule operations Lenin [and probably Putin] favoured to keep the far more numerous anti-Bolshevik factions split.
Given Putin is more of a fascist than a communist in many ways he might try and and moderate some of the excesses of the Bolsheviks, although this might be difficult given how much of a 180 turn that would need in many aspects. He's likely to still introduce the NEP, possibly a bit earlier to reduce the damage of Bolshevik policies and given his character he might be willing to keep it longer.
Assuming he has better health and hence won't die as early - assassination aside which will always be a risk - I suspect he will seek to sideline both Trotsky [because he's an idiot who could lead the SU to disaster] and Stalin as a potential rival/replacement. Stalin would probably be fairly easy to remove as he's still somewhat a secondary figure in 1917 but Trotsky, if he's still the hero who formed and led the Red Army could be more difficult. However by its nature the Bolshevik party under Lenin was very much a totalitarian system so its definitely possible. This does leave more moderate figures in power but if their too moral or logical they could also be replaced.
Putin could end up as a Stalin like figure, developing a cult of personality and strengthening his terror system but probably being somewhat less murderous that Stalin. He is likely to support forced industrialisation and may well avoid early links with Germany, allowing the German army to bypass the restrictions applied by the Versailles Treaty. [If Putin makes peace somewhat earlier with Germany the latter's spring 1918 offensive may be a little earlier but its unlikely to change the German defeat to any great degree.]
Not sure whether a Putin led USSR would seek to improve relations with the western powers or keep his distance. OTL of course he's deeply hostile to the west but then Russia is still a lot stronger than the USSR was in the early 1920's so he could trim his sails a bit here.
Anyway initial thoughts.
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Zyobot
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Post by Zyobot on Jan 12, 2021 17:14:46 GMT
I think Putin would have a decent chance of success as like Lenin he's basically a terrorist but with a lot more training and all that background knowledge of history. Assuming he knows enough about the period then key points for him would be: a) Making sure his coup in November goes ahead as OTL b) Possibly reining in Trotsky somewhat and making an earlier peace with Germany rather than the no peace no war approach they tried which enable the Germans to occupy such vast areas of the Russian empire. This would reduce somewhat the level of destruction and also loss of Bolshevik prestige so the following civil war could well be won quicker and more decisively. c) Avoiding the assassination attempt by Fanny_Kaplan which may have caused a lot of his later health decline. [Although there are other suspected causes of which the most likely seems to be syphilis according to his wiki entry, see Vladimir_Lenin#Declining_health, 2nd paragraph. [Possibly Putin/Lenin might have less affairs?]
In terms of differences from OTL I wonder if he might be less brutal and seek to use the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionaries for a little longer rather than quickly establish an outright dictatorship? Suspect he would still do the 1st purges against the kulaks both because I would expect food shortages to still occur and their a suitable target for the sort of divide and rule operations Lenin [and probably Putin] favoured to keep the far more numerous anti-Bolshevik factions split.
Given Putin is more of a fascist than a communist in many ways he might try and and moderate some of the excesses of the Bolsheviks, although this might be difficult given how much of a 180 turn that would need in many aspects. He's likely to still introduce the NEP, possibly a bit earlier to reduce the damage of Bolshevik policies and given his character he might be willing to keep it longer.
Assuming he has better health and hence won't die as early - assassination aside which will always be a risk - I suspect he will seek to sideline both Trotsky [because he's an idiot who could lead the SU to disaster] and Stalin as a potential rival/replacement. Stalin would probably be fairly easy to remove as he's still somewhat a secondary figure in 1917 but Trotsky, if he's still the hero who formed and led the Red Army could be more difficult. However by its nature the Bolshevik party under Lenin was very much a totalitarian system so its definitely possible. This does leave more moderate figures in power but if their too moral or logical they could also be replaced.
Putin could end up as a Stalin like figure, developing a cult of personality and strengthening his terror system but probably being somewhat less murderous that Stalin. He is likely to support forced industrialisation and may well avoid early links with Germany, allowing the German army to bypass the restrictions applied by the Versailles Treaty. [If Putin makes peace somewhat earlier with Germany the latter's spring 1918 offensive may be a little earlier but its unlikely to change the German defeat to any great degree.]
Not sure whether a Putin led USSR would seek to improve relations with the western powers or keep his distance. OTL of course he's deeply hostile to the west but then Russia is still a lot stronger than the USSR was in the early 1920's so he could trim his sails a bit here.
Anyway initial thoughts.
Thank you for your points, stevep. Maybe I should make a separate thread for this, given how much promise this scenario shows thus far. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Jan 13, 2021 11:48:33 GMT
I think Putin would have a decent chance of success as like Lenin he's basically a terrorist but with a lot more training and all that background knowledge of history. Assuming he knows enough about the period then key points for him would be: a) Making sure his coup in November goes ahead as OTL b) Possibly reining in Trotsky somewhat and making an earlier peace with Germany rather than the no peace no war approach they tried which enable the Germans to occupy such vast areas of the Russian empire. This would reduce somewhat the level of destruction and also loss of Bolshevik prestige so the following civil war could well be won quicker and more decisively. c) Avoiding the assassination attempt by Fanny_Kaplan which may have caused a lot of his later health decline. [Although there are other suspected causes of which the most likely seems to be syphilis according to his wiki entry, see Vladimir_Lenin#Declining_health, 2nd paragraph. [Possibly Putin/Lenin might have less affairs?]
In terms of differences from OTL I wonder if he might be less brutal and seek to use the Mensheviks and Social Revolutionaries for a little longer rather than quickly establish an outright dictatorship? Suspect he would still do the 1st purges against the kulaks both because I would expect food shortages to still occur and their a suitable target for the sort of divide and rule operations Lenin [and probably Putin] favoured to keep the far more numerous anti-Bolshevik factions split.
Given Putin is more of a fascist than a communist in many ways he might try and and moderate some of the excesses of the Bolsheviks, although this might be difficult given how much of a 180 turn that would need in many aspects. He's likely to still introduce the NEP, possibly a bit earlier to reduce the damage of Bolshevik policies and given his character he might be willing to keep it longer.
Assuming he has better health and hence won't die as early - assassination aside which will always be a risk - I suspect he will seek to sideline both Trotsky [because he's an idiot who could lead the SU to disaster] and Stalin as a potential rival/replacement. Stalin would probably be fairly easy to remove as he's still somewhat a secondary figure in 1917 but Trotsky, if he's still the hero who formed and led the Red Army could be more difficult. However by its nature the Bolshevik party under Lenin was very much a totalitarian system so its definitely possible. This does leave more moderate figures in power but if their too moral or logical they could also be replaced.
Putin could end up as a Stalin like figure, developing a cult of personality and strengthening his terror system but probably being somewhat less murderous that Stalin. He is likely to support forced industrialisation and may well avoid early links with Germany, allowing the German army to bypass the restrictions applied by the Versailles Treaty. [If Putin makes peace somewhat earlier with Germany the latter's spring 1918 offensive may be a little earlier but its unlikely to change the German defeat to any great degree.]
Not sure whether a Putin led USSR would seek to improve relations with the western powers or keep his distance. OTL of course he's deeply hostile to the west but then Russia is still a lot stronger than the USSR was in the early 1920's so he could trim his sails a bit here.
Anyway initial thoughts.
Thank you for your points, stevep . Maybe I should make a separate thread for this, given how much promise this scenario shows thus far.
Up to you but depends on how far you think it might run. We had the British Dominions to 21 AD but it was only the two of us and not sure how much detail either of us would want to go into on that or the Putin/Lenin one?
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