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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 26, 2020 11:58:51 GMT
A short and fairly straightforward one here
in the form of a two parter:
1.) The force at Isandlwhana takes delivery of four Maxim guns on the morning of January 22nd 1879, with 20,000 rounds for each. The men know somehow how to use them upon approaching them.
2.) The garrison at Rorke’s Drift is equipped overnight with SMLE Mk 4s, along with a switch of their ammunition supply and the same strange familiarity.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 26, 2020 12:06:00 GMT
A short and fairly straightforward one here in the form of a two parter: 1.) The force at Isandlwhana takes delivery of four Maxim guns on the morning of January 22nd 1879, with 20,000 rounds for each. The men know somehow how to use them upon approaching them. 2.) The garrison at Rorke’s Drift is equipped overnight with SMLE Mk 4s, along with a switch of their ammunition supply and the same strange familiarity. 1.) So the British get their hands on the Maxim gun 5 years earlier, this is going to be a massacre, if the British forces at Isandlwhana deploys them correctly. |
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 26, 2020 12:38:59 GMT
A short and fairly straightforward one here in the form of a two parter: 1.) The force at Isandlwhana takes delivery of four Maxim guns on the morning of January 22nd 1879, with 20,000 rounds for each. The men know somehow how to use them upon approaching them. 2.) The garrison at Rorke’s Drift is equipped overnight with SMLE Mk 4s, along with a switch of their ammunition supply and the same strange familiarity. 1.) So the British get their hands on the Maxim gun 5 years earlier, this is going to be a massacre, if the British forces at Isandlwhana deploys them correctly.
Would agree. The additional new weapons at Rorke's Drift are likely to be an historical puzzle and little more as their unlikely to be attacked I suspect given the mauling the main Zulu army gets.
Possibly the biggest butterfly here,other than people wondering about those new weapons, is if he isn't among the casualties what happens to the Prince_Imperial and his possibly impact on the future? There was an Bonapartist element in French politics and with a clear 'leader', especially if he's gained some military experience with the British so French politics between 1871-1914 [ish] could be even more complex and confusing. |
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 26, 2020 12:45:50 GMT
1.) So the British get their hands on the Maxim gun 5 years earlier, this is going to be a massacre, if the British forces at Isandlwhana deploys them correctly. Would agree. The additional new weapons at Rorke's Drift are likely to be an historical puzzle and little more as their unlikely to be attacked I suspect given the mauling the main Zulu army gets. Possibly the biggest butterfly here,other than people wondering about those new weapons, is if he isn't among the casualties what happens to the Prince_Imperial and his possibly impact on the future? There was an Bonapartist element in French politics and with a clear 'leader', especially if he's gained some military experience with the British so French politics between 1871-1914 [ish] could be even more complex and confusing. Would the British use the gun as seen in this clip 4:05 mark. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 26, 2020 13:26:40 GMT
I do like puzzles and what they can lead to. Maxims, if handled right, could inflict losses on the Zulus at Isandlwhana, but without laagering the camp, there is still a definite risk that the British line will be outflanked and enveloped. Hence the Rorke's Drift scenario. samilitaryhistory.org/vol044gc.htmlThe battle map halfway down this page shows the enveloping attacks characteristic of the Zulu. Put simply, without Chelmsford's ~2500 men, they did not have the force to take on the Zulus in the field. Even if they had, I'm not sure even Maxims will do the job. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 26, 2020 13:34:42 GMT
A little segue into music to illustrate a point: "We fought them at the Bonko, 'twas just the other day
They laid an ambush in our path - we went another way
To capture Bulawayo and stop a fearful war
The Sal'sbry Horse, Victoria Rangers and the old Cape Corps.
On the first day of November of eighteen ninety-three
We fought the Matabele at the Battle of Bembezi.
We formed a laager on the hill at mid-day for to rest
We saw an Insukamini regiment towards the west
We swung the seven-pounder 'round; let a big one fly
And from the east the Amaveni gave their battle cry.
On the first day of November of eighteen ninety-three
We fought the Matabele at the Battle of Bembezi.
The wild Ingubu with the fierce Imbezu on the right
Came charging from the northern bush, they were a fearful sight
And near 6000 warriors - we stopped them on the run
The bravest of the brave could never match the Maxim gun.
On the first day of November of eighteen ninety-three
We fought the Matabele at the Battle of Bembezi."en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Bembeziwww.sahistory.org.za/dated-event/decisive-battle-bembesi-bembasi-fought-first-matabele-war-ndebele-zimbabwe- Laagering up prevented being outflanked and concentrated the BSAC firepower in that case - The BSAC held the high ground atop a hill, whereas the British at Isandlwhana did not - Used properly, Maxims could be extremely decisive against an enemy fighting similarly to the Zulu - It would really depend on how much damage could be inflicted on the flanking attacks and on the central head of the buffalo |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 28, 2020 5:08:25 GMT
So, for me, the big question is whether the force at Isandlwhana can hold. If it can, the Maxims have an interesting role to play from there. If not...they end up as a strange anomaly that is then possibly found.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 28, 2020 5:09:35 GMT
So, for me, the big question is whether the force at Isandlwhana can hold. If it can, the Maxims have an interesting role to play from there. If not...they end up as a strange anomaly that is then possibly found. How long does it take for 1 Maxim to fire its 20,000 rounds. |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 28, 2020 6:05:30 GMT
36 minutes or so at maximum. They wouldn’t be doing that in a cyclical manner, so kick it out to 60-90 minutes for bursts, given that the Zulu wouldn’t be charging all the time. With four guns widely separated, they wouldn’t get Somme levels of beaten ground.
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Post by stevep on Dec 28, 2020 10:36:26 GMT
So, for me, the big question is whether the force at Isandlwhana can hold. If it can, the Maxims have an interesting role to play from there. If not...they end up as a strange anomaly that is then possibly found.
The key factor, as well as their location on the battlefield and ammo supply to them might be the shock to the Zulus. Since the latter attacked in close ranks as I understand it a single Maxim is going to do horrendous damage if its able to blast a formation without quickly being closed down. Compared to the single shot rifles that I think the British army was using at the time - albeit going by the film which has more than a few inaccuracies - that's going to cause a serious shock that could even pause/break Zulu morale for a while, giving the British more time to regroup. Of course the Maxims are then likely to be prime targets for future attacks, to shut them down ASAP.
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 28, 2020 16:13:47 GMT
So where to put the guns.  |
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 29, 2020 11:50:04 GMT
I'd put one in the middle of the horizontal line, one in the middle of the vertical line, one at the base of the vertical line and one at the corner juncture that can provide a degree of enfilading fire and prevent a rupture of the positions.
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2020 13:53:20 GMT
I'd put one in the middle of the horizontal line, one in the middle of the vertical line, one at the base of the vertical line and one at the corner juncture that can provide a degree of enfilading fire and prevent a rupture of the positions.
That sounds good. Depending on how much the British knew about the direction of the attack I might be tempted to think either even of the vertical line, plus one at that slight stagger about a third of the way down, so it could fire through the gap there. The 4th initially supporting the northern force but able to swing to hit at Zulu units trying to outflank the southern part of the western force. This of course depends on the topology and also range as well as what the defenders knew. Also from what I recall of a TV programme on the battle a few years back the British forces were so thinly stretched that rather than actual formed lines they were fighting pretty much as individual soldiers with several metres between each. In which case its even harder to get a decent defence and fields of fire for the Maxims although how accurate that was I don't know. The link you posted a couple of days back seemed to suggest the position was holding until either a disruption in supply or a sudden withdrawal saw everything fall apart.
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Post by lordroel on Dec 29, 2020 16:16:11 GMT
I'd put one in the middle of the horizontal line, one in the middle of the vertical line, one at the base of the vertical line and one at the corner juncture that can provide a degree of enfilading fire and prevent a rupture of the positions. As soon as they fire, the Zulus will be in for a surprise. |
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Post by oscssw on Dec 29, 2020 18:22:56 GMT
I'd put one in the middle of the horizontal line, one in the middle of the vertical line, one at the base of the vertical line and one at the corner juncture that can provide a degree of enfilading fire and prevent a rupture of the positions. As soon as they fire, the Zulus will be in for a surprise. Anyone know how good the Zulu tactical communications and discipline was?
I'd think once the Zulu attacking force was committed to the actual charge nothing their leaders could do would divert them but I could be wrong. If I'm right the press of follow on troops would keep pushing the front line Zulus into the maxim gun fire.
One way to deal with the lack of training on the maxim guns would be for them to be delivered by trained gunners. Not so simple for the senior officers to comprehend exactly how best to use the maxims. Reminds me of the misuse of radar in the early sea battles around Guadalcanal.
This reminds me of the old Custer What If! To with "What if George Custer had brought his Gatlings to the Little Big Horn. Read many arguments pro and con. Most were not worth the time it took to read them but a few were well thought out. Of the well thought out ones an equally good case was made for taking the guns along and leaving them behind.
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