stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2020 14:25:09 GMT
While browsing YouTube I came across this video, did a volcanic eruption end the Mongol empire. A little known eruption in Indonesia [why does it always seem to be Indonesia??] seems to have a dramatic impact on weather across Euroasia for several years.
More specifically their arguing that one side effect was a combination of heavy rains and a cholera that defeated the Great Khan Möngke's attempt to conquer the Sung empire and led to the civil war between Kublai Khan and his brother Ariq Boke and the fragmenting of the Mongol empire into competing factions. Its not the only factor as once Berke took power in what became the Golden Horde, with his staunch Islamic position there was almost certain to be serious conflict between him and Hulagu's Ilkhanate.
Also given its huge size its likely the empire would have splintered before too long but another few years of unchallenged unity under Möngke might have had some significant impacts on world history.
Anyway be interested to see what people think if say Möngke had taken a different decision, delayed his attack in Sichuan until later and avoided his OTL death for at least a few more years.
Steve
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lordroel
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Post by lordroel on Dec 24, 2020 14:28:39 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2020 14:37:49 GMT
Yes that's the one, although according to the video there is some doubt over the exact year. I hadn't heard of this eruption before so was a surprise to me. The video suggests that the factor was that one side effect was a stronger El Nino which caused a cholera epidemic in Bengal that spread north into southern China. It quotes evidence of this happening during other strong El Nino events so that could have been a factor, along with heavy rains, which while traditional for the region could have been worsened by the volcano.
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 24, 2020 17:03:46 GMT
Volcanos seem to have quite the impact on human history when we dig a bit.
There is Thera, the 536 event, Tambora in 1816, Kuwae in 1452-53 and of course Toba.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 24, 2020 18:16:25 GMT
Volcanos seem to have quite the impact on human history when we dig a bit. There is Thera, the 536 event, Tambora in 1816, Kuwae in 1452-53 and of course Toba.
Simon
Ah didn't know about the Kuwae one. Interesting. Is there a plate boundary through there or is it an hot spot plume do you know? Also interesting that Wiki says the 536 one may have been Iceland or the tropics as I've seen it mentioned as Indonesia as well, hence my comment in my previous post.
Steve
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Post by simon darkshade on Dec 24, 2020 23:28:01 GMT
Kuwae in Vanuatu seems to be right on the plate boundary.
My initial reading on 536 focused on Iceland, but there was an interesting documentary postulating the role of Krakatoa.
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gillan1220
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Post by gillan1220 on Dec 25, 2020 8:45:02 GMT
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 25, 2020 11:25:39 GMT
Kuwae in Vanuatu seems to be right on the plate boundary. My initial reading on 536 focused on Iceland, but there was an interesting documentary postulating the role of Krakatoa.
I 1st came across the 536 eruption in a book about 20-30 years ago where the author blamed it for problems around the world, including the Justinian Plague, break up of a Turkish empire in central Asia leading to later nomadic invasions, collapse of some cultures in the Americas and possibly also the failure of the Britons to maintain a stable position against the Anglo-Saxon invasions among others. He also mentioned Krakatoa as the suspected source but suggested that before the eruption Java and Sumatra had actually been a single island and this event was so big it created the Sundra straits between the two. I was dubious about this at the time but its always been an interesting idea.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 25, 2020 11:33:45 GMT
It might have played a part in his defeat at Waterloo, which would have big impacts if he had managed some sort of victory there but I doubt it would have prevented his empire collapsing. He was always going to take heavy losses even if he defeated both the British/allied army and the Prussians and since he dare not introduce conscription he was reliant on a relatively small number of loyalists who couldn't be replaced. Britain and Prussian could have raised more troops, albeit with some political and economic difficulties but more importantly both Austria and Russia were raising much larger armies and already marching westward to oppose him. Unless there had been a crisis of confidence - and given his past history the powers knew they couldn't trust Napoleon - he would have been overwhelmed.
However a victory in whats called the Waterloo campaign would have had impacts. Wellington, assuming he wasn't killed in it, and Britain as a whole would have somewhat less prestige and influence at the following peace treaty. France is likely to suffer a harsher peace than in 1814 and the position of the Bourbon monarchy might look too fragile. Could well be other butterflies from this.
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oscssw
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Post by oscssw on Dec 28, 2020 16:27:42 GMT
Interesting Topic Steve. Caused me to do some research and I found an article by Dr. Joseph McConnell, a research professor at the Desert Research Institute, which is part of the Nevada System of Higher Education in the US.
Throughout human history, large volcanic eruptions have affected the year-to-year variability of the Earth’s climate and even triggered crop failures and famines. These events may also have contributed to disease pandemics and the decline of agriculture-based societies.
In our study published today in the journal Nature , we used ice-core records to provide a new reconstruction of the timing of nearly 300 individual volcanic eruptions extending as far back as the early Roman period. And then we worked out the radiative forcing of these eruptions – or how they have affected the energy balance of the Earth.
Summer cooling
When volcanoes erupt, they inject large amounts of sulphur dioxide into the upper atmosphere. These combine with oxygen and water to form sulphate aerosols, which shield the Earth’s surface from incoming solar radiation and cause cooler temperatures for as long as two years after an eruption.
We derived our reconstruction of past eruptions by looking for these aerosols in more than 20 individual ice cores extracted from ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica.
These new records show that large volcanic eruptions in the tropics and high latitudes were the dominant drivers of climate variability, responsible for numerous and widespread summer cooling extremes during the past 2,500 years.
Our study shows that 15 of the 16 coldest summers recorded between 500 BC and 1,000 AD followed large volcanic eruptions – with four of the coldest occurring shortly after the largest volcanic events.
Our team of 24 scientists from the United States, United Kingdom, Switzerland, Germany, Denmark, and Sweden verified the timing of these events with the help of tree ring data. To align the two types of data, we used a distinctive signature of an extra-terrestrial cosmic ray event around 774-775 AD, which would could see in the tree rings and ice cores.
Mystery cloud
We reviewed ancient and medieval documentary records from China, Babylon (now Iraq), and Europe, which contain references to unusual atmospheric observations as early as 254 BC. These phenomena included diminished sunlight, discoloration of the solar disk, the presence of solar coronae, and deeply red twilight skies.
Tropical volcanoes and large eruptions in Iceland and North America often caused severe and widespread summer cooling in the Northern Hemisphere by injecting sulfate and ash into the high atmosphere. These particles also dimmed the atmosphere over Europe to such an extent that the effect was noted and recorded in independent archives by numerous historical eyewitnesses.
These new findings resolve a long-standing debate regarding the causes of one of the most severe climate crises in recent human history, starting with an 18-month “mystery cloud” or dust veil observed in the Mediterranean region beginning in March, 536 AD. Our data show this was caused by a large eruption in the high latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere. The initial cooling was intensified when a second volcano located somewhere in the tropics erupted only four years later. In the aftermath, the Northern Hemisphere experienced exceptionally cold summers.
This pattern persisted for almost fifteen years, with subsequent crop failures and famines – likely contributing to the outbreak of the Justinian plague that spread throughout the Eastern Roman Empire from 541 to 543 AD, and which ultimately decimated the human population across Eurasia.
Rise and fall
Our new reconstruction of volcanic forcing will lead to improved climate model simulations through better quantification of the sensitivity of the climate system to volcanic influences during the past 2,500 years.
As a result, climate variability observed during more recent times can be put into a multi-millennial perspective – such as times of significant cultural change such as Great Migration Period of the 6th century in Europe.
This reconciliation of ice-core records and other records of past environmental change will help define the role that large climatic perturbations may have had in the rise and fall of civilizations throughout human history. With new high-resolution records emerging from ice cores in Greenland and Antarctica, it will be possible to extend this reconstruction of volcanic forcing probably all the way back into the last Ice Age.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Dec 29, 2020 11:13:39 GMT
oscssw , Very interesting thanks. That seems to confirm that the prime cause for the 536 event was a northern volcano, then probably prolonged by a 2nd event in the topics.
Given how many such events there have been we seem to have been lucky since 1815 that nothing has really hit the same level. Plus we're probably never going to know with great accuracy how many earlier political, economic and other events may have been triggered or escalated by volcanic and other climatic events in human history.
Steve
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