stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 24, 2021 11:15:10 GMT
Holy fuck. Never expected the Chinese to shoot down Tolentino's plane. The UN would have slapped sanctions at the PRC at this period.
I don't think that's possible. The PRC have a permanent seat on the security council so they could veto any such bid - which they would almost certainly have had to do already after their attacks on Vietnam and the Philippines and the massed terror bombing there.
Not sure which is the shock as there's a fair number of candidates here. The pretty much depopulating of Hong Kong, if people are able to move before the take over, Kemp's continuation of insane foreign policies that cripple the US, Jackson and Brown's similarly stupidity - I suspect here that they wouldn't be that moronic but since the source is from the CIA, which is currently pretty much in a state of war with the US that could be a deliberate misrepresentation of events. Then there's the mass slaughter of the Kurds - as most would be unable to move into N Iraq even if they were given the choice and the would then quickly starve. Suspect this is more similar to the death marches Turkey organised for their Armenian victims in 1915-16. At the same time Kemp has pretty much declared he will go to war with Turkey, Syria and Iran. This would is a mess even given what Tadir is doing in the Philippines and the megalomania in China. Compared to this shooting down a civilian a/c to murder a diplomat is pretty much a minor irrelevance.
On the bright side while its had a very nasty civil war - which fortunately didn't go nuclear - the Slavic parts of the former USSR is looking to have a healthier path than its death dive under Putin. The EU is even larger here but might not be as blind in its view of ever increasingly centralisation that has caused so many problems OTL. However those changes are pretty much minor compared to the negatives I fear.
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Post by kyuzoaoi on Mar 24, 2021 14:38:36 GMT
That's a surprise, Tolentino got shot by China.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 25, 2021 1:31:39 GMT
They fucking beheaded Eddard Stark shot Arturo Tolentino, that I did not expect. Wasn't it so, so grave an affront that would have warranted much more backlash due to that diplomatic immunity thing? It's not like that they had too much factories in there. Anyways though, I finally saw why the Filipino vote went with the Republicans again. Even I got positively disgusted with his naivete. I also see that this timeline is building upon a cursed coalition between the right-wing regimes of Philippines (even under Legarda) and an assertive Japan. Anyways though, can you spoil us for the economic condition of our star country by the time that Legarda came into power? Is the poor place bombed so much that it can't be compared to OTL, or did almost two decades of being released from sanctions enough to make it even "with some infrastructure better an IOTL"? I specifically asked for the economy and infrastructure because the regime and their death camps would always make this country cursed, and the bombing already did their number (It didn't help that the OTL government did piss-all nothing flashy with the infrastructure, not that turning this country into North Korea would do any better for the sake of funding all those rails.) I am surprised that The Sun isn't much more gung-ho about this however, though to be fair, Sky News being a reputable international brand must have indicated already that this timeline had done quite a number too for Rupert Murdoch and the rest of the right-wing and corporatist establishment. In the brighter side though, at least they can also have a discussion about the deep state in good faith while having a modicum of sanity, along with the thing about right-wing media above. Now, it would certainly help if they wouldn't egg on the anti-communist hate-boner Republicans had especially when dealing with Venezuela. Mexico is already enough of a basket case to deal with. Isn't there some sort of thing in Asian societies where saving face is a cultural obsession? The fact that Tolentino just bluntly insulted the Chinese delegates by simply refusing to sign the peace treaty and walking out is a major embarrassment to them, and they take it out on him, with tragic results. The next update however, will reveal the Chinese POV of the murder of Tolentino. Let's just say that the Chinese government will probably reprimand whoever shot his plane down, even if it was intentional. So far, the Philippine economy is suffering from economic sanctions, and we have not yet covered the fate of the Philippine Peso, which ITTL will suffer the most. We know that sanctions would be lifted on May 27th, 2006, meaning that from the end of the Chinese bombing campaign to the end of the UN sanctions, the Philippine economy will be on a literal life support, hence the OFWs of TTL working in Japan. There is also this portion right here regarding one of the origins of the ATL 1997 Asian Financial Crisis as well: Tadiar by this point is recklessly experimenting with ways to reboot the Philippine economy, and the concept of the Greenback pioneered by President Lincoln during the American Civil War will be featured ITTL more openly. It would also allow ordinary people to discuss topics that OTL's viewers would normally consider as conspiracy theory. Let me put it this way: the bombing would have heavily damaged the Philippines, but it might allow the Tadiar regime to plan a new kind of urbanization project in this case. The slums and the small shacks that you see along the river in Manila, Quezon City, and probably in Makati, they are all gone at that point. The economic malaise would kill off the Skyway Metro Manila project, but in hindsight, it might be better in the long run, as the Skyway wouldn't be subjected to damages caused by earthquakes (see TTL's Loma Prieta Earthquake as an example). In addition, NAIA is also damaged beyond repair as well ITTL, so they might build a new airport in the same spot, or build it elsewhere. This is the spot where they could build TTL's version of New Manila International Airport: All of the SM malls are already damaged at this point, and thanks to economic sanctions, SM malls would probably be deserted. I wouldn't be surprised if Tadiar would allow Antonio Floirendo Sr. to take over the SM Malls that would be confiscated from Henry Sy. What I can say however, is that with the eventual ascension of Kabankalan as the new capital city of the Philippines TTL, you won't have the iconic Mall of Asia being built in Manila. You know the spot where the casinos staffed by POGO workers are located? ITTL, that would have been turned into a national park, or a nature preserve. No POGO workers for Filipinos to protest against ITTL, but that is replaced with protests against Japanese medical workers. Holy fuck. Never expected the Chinese to shoot down Tolentino's plane. The UN would have slapped sanctions at the PRC at this period.
I don't think that's possible. The PRC have a permanent seat on the security council so they could veto any such bid - which they would almost certainly have had to do already after their attacks on Vietnam and the Philippines and the massed terror bombing there.
Not sure which is the shock as there's a fair number of candidates here. The pretty much depopulating of Hong Kong, if people are able to move before the take over, Kemp's continuation of insane foreign policies that cripple the US, Jackson and Brown's similarly stupidity - I suspect here that they wouldn't be that moronic but since the source is from the CIA, which is currently pretty much in a state of war with the US that could be a deliberate misrepresentation of events. Then there's the mass slaughter of the Kurds - as most would be unable to move into N Iraq even if they were given the choice and the would then quickly starve. Suspect this is more similar to the death marches Turkey organized for their Armenian victims in 1915-16. At the same time Kemp has pretty much declared he will go to war with Turkey, Syria and Iran. This would is a mess even given what Tadiar is doing in the Philippines and the megalomania in China. Compared to this shooting down a civilian a/c to murder a diplomat is pretty much a minor irrelevance.
On the bright side while its had a very nasty civil war - which fortunately didn't go nuclear - the Slavic parts of the former USSR is looking to have a healthier path than its death dive under Putin. The EU is even larger here but might not be as blind in its view of ever increasingly centralisation that has caused so many problems OTL. However those changes are pretty much minor compared to the negatives I fear.
OTL Russia has a permanent seat on the Security Council, and yet they were slapped with sanctions due to the OTL Ukrainian Crisis, plus the MH17 shootdown over Donetsk. TTL's Hong Kong is more of a stampeding exodus of fearful Hong Kong refugees who do not want to live under Chinese rule this time around, which would be worse than OTL 2020-21's Hong Kong protests, Taiwan and Singapore potentially becoming a refuge for not only Hong Konger and Macanese refugees, but even mainland Chinese dissidents who had to flee from China after the Tiananmen Square massacre. I would not say that the Jackson administration is suffering from some kind of stupidity. More along the lines of naivety, as if they are approaching it like a neighborhood watch taking over a dispute. However, Jesse Jackson's legacy would eventually become rehabilitated once the real insanity of the Tadiar regime is displayed for the world to see. We are probably seeing this, with the Philippines resorting to piracy, in order to survive. That would probably demonstrate to the entire world that the Philippines has become a virtual Somalia juxtaposed on an island. I would not say that the Kurds are being massacred outright. It's more along the lines of massive deportations by those governments, and certainly even worse than what happened with the Armenians under Ottoman rule, because the Kurds also share the same religion as their oppressors. The fact that a NATO member state is also carrying out acts of ethnic cleansing is something that NATO itself would not tolerate, hence Kemp's threat of expelling Turkey from NATO. This can be fatal to the Turks, because without NATO support, the Russians might actually take advantage of Turkish vulnerability and approach both Georgia and Armenia with an offer of reversing the Treaty of Kars' Turkish gains by offering Georgia all of Tao-Klajerti, and Armenia Kars, the territories surrounding Mount Ararat, and have its borders stretch to Lake Van and Erzurum, plus a possible reconquest of Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh. It can also be fatal to Azerbaijan as well, since they stand to lose from Kemp expelling Turkey, but Iran would not be happy with the arrangement as well. Thus, you would have a more restraint Turkish government thinking of the consequences, especially now that Russia and Iran are mending relations a lot earlier. And in a few updates, we will see how Russia is dealing with terrorist attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda, so they are not really quiet in this regard. Plus, as hinted in previous chapters, the Russians will invade a country for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union, although it might be under the pretext of eliminating Al-Qaeda. Right now, Central Asia is pretty much a lawless region, with Al-Qaeda a de facto power broker in the region. That's a surprise, Tolentino got shot by China. It is indeed, and even the Chinese government will not be happy with this incident. This TL might become the new Zhirinovsky's Russian Empire, but the butterflies would touch everyone, from politics, to pop culture and even social norms.
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gillan1220
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I've been depressed recently. Slow replies coming in the next few days.
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Post by gillan1220 on Mar 25, 2021 1:55:52 GMT
All of the SM malls are already damaged at this point, and thanks to economic sanctions, SM malls would probably be deserted. I wouldn't be surprised if Tadiar would allow Antonio Floirendo Sr. to take over the SM Malls that would be confiscated from Henry Sy. What I can say however, is that with the eventual ascension of Kabankalan as the new capital city of the Philippines TTL, you won't have the iconic Mall of Asia being built in Manila. You know the spot where the casinos staffed by POGO workers are located? ITTL, that would have been turned into a national park, or a nature preserve. No POGO workers for Filipinos to protest against ITTL, but that is replaced with protests against Japanese medical workers. With the PH economy in the toilet bowl, all those megamalls from SM and Ayala Land we see in OTL simply are not there. This would mean no SM Seaside, no Greenbelt, no Glorietta, and Ayala Center Cebu.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 25, 2021 2:05:22 GMT
Yep, they would probably be replaced with more open air palengke, like what you would see in the provinces. Also, you could see an earlier ascension of Japanese style condos and houses being built in the Philippines, as a result of an increase in Japanese medical workers. I might have killed off the favorite past time of Filipino youths, which is going to SM. Hell, even NE Pacific would probably be taken over by one of the so-called Tadiar cronies. The only so-called positive side of this is that the Philippines would have killed off its American-style consumerist behavior a lot sooner.
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simeon
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Post by simeon on Mar 25, 2021 3:16:21 GMT
Anyways though, what is the status of the relationship between Manila and the Ifugao cultures, considering that Tadiar planned on infrastructure projects that may have affected their places? How about the other hinterland cultures like the Aetas and the Lumads? While there could still be targeted persecution for the activists on their rank, the comprehensive campaign against the communist could have eliminated them one of the venues on which they can resist the government. Would it anger and radicalise them however? I fear that's moot point once China likewise comprehensively bombed the country. I bet that the Tadiar decades would be mythologized as the formative years that forged the country as a true nation-state, the methods and events being incredibly cursed being both notwithstanding and ignored.
Anyways though, have you retconned the Chinese being considered as unredeemable untersmenschen in the country?
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 25, 2021 3:24:24 GMT
Anyways though, what is the status of the relationship between Manila and the Ifugao cultures, considering that Tadiar planned on infrastructure projects that may have affected their places? How about the other hinterland cultures like the Aetas and the Lumads? While there could still be targeted persecution for the activists on their rank, the comprehensive campaign against the communist could have eliminated them one of the venues on which they can resist the government. Would it anger and radicalise them however? I fear that's moot point once China likewise comprehensively bombed the country. I bet that the Tadiar decades would be mythologized as the formative years that forged the country as a true nation-state, the methods and events being incredibly cursed being both notwithstanding and ignored. Anyways though, have you retconned the Chinese being considered as unredeemable untersmenschen in the country? I think I may have revised that a while ago, but please tell me which page, and I will retcon it as well. The fate of the Ifugao, Aetas and Lumads would be something that Tadiar himself will focus on later on, but federalization might go a long way in preserving the cultures of those groups. Ironically, the Chinese bombing might actually drive the Lumads into fanatical Tadiar supporters, as Tadiar himself would actually look to include them in his power sharing. Besides, the Tadiar regime could go a long way into actually addressing such issues. Are you referring to this one here:
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simeon
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Post by simeon on Mar 25, 2021 4:44:22 GMT
I can't pinpoint the exact chapters, but I think it is the part where they were made to don red stars and were used as forced labour.
Anyways though, the nationalists have gotten their nation-state with patriotic people, but at what cost?
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 25, 2021 5:01:04 GMT
I can't pinpoint the exact chapters, but I think it is the part where they were made to don red stars and were used as forced labour. Anyways though, the nationalists have gotten their nation-state with patriotic people, but at what cost?Ahh, the slave Labour part. I’ll retcon that part soon, though it might be changed to convict labor.
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simeon
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Post by simeon on Mar 25, 2021 5:43:30 GMT
Ahh, the slave Labour part. I’ll retcon that part soon, though it might be changed to convict labor. So, will the Fil-chi's alienation be retconned? I think some of them could become akin to the American Nisei where their drive to prove themselves would make them a reliable source of cadres, to say nothing of those ones who were orphaned by the bombing.
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stevep
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Post by stevep on Mar 25, 2021 12:45:27 GMT
I don't think that's possible. The PRC have a permanent seat on the security council so they could veto any such bid - which they would almost certainly have had to do already after their attacks on Vietnam and the Philippines and the massed terror bombing there.
Not sure which is the shock as there's a fair number of candidates here. The pretty much depopulating of Hong Kong, if people are able to move before the take over, Kemp's continuation of insane foreign policies that cripple the US, Jackson and Brown's similarly stupidity - I suspect here that they wouldn't be that moronic but since the source is from the CIA, which is currently pretty much in a state of war with the US that could be a deliberate misrepresentation of events. Then there's the mass slaughter of the Kurds - as most would be unable to move into N Iraq even if they were given the choice and the would then quickly starve. Suspect this is more similar to the death marches Turkey organized for their Armenian victims in 1915-16. At the same time Kemp has pretty much declared he will go to war with Turkey, Syria and Iran. This would is a mess even given what Tadiar is doing in the Philippines and the megalomania in China. Compared to this shooting down a civilian a/c to murder a diplomat is pretty much a minor irrelevance.
On the bright side while its had a very nasty civil war - which fortunately didn't go nuclear - the Slavic parts of the former USSR is looking to have a healthier path than its death dive under Putin. The EU is even larger here but might not be as blind in its view of ever increasingly centralisation that has caused so many problems OTL. However those changes are pretty much minor compared to the negatives I fear.
OTL Russia has a permanent seat on the Security Council, and yet they were slapped with sanctions due to the OTL Ukrainian Crisis, plus the MH17 shootdown over Donetsk. I would not say that the Kurds are being massacred outright. It's more along the lines of massive deportations by those governments, and certainly even worse than what happened with the Armenians under Ottoman rule, because the Kurds also share the same religion as their oppressors. The fact that a NATO member state is also carrying out acts of ethnic cleansing is something that NATO itself would not tolerate, hence Kemp's threat of expelling Turkey from NATO. This can be fatal to the Turks, because without NATO support, the Russians might actually take advantage of Turkish vulnerability and approach both Georgia and Armenia with an offer of reversing the Treaty of Kars' Turkish gains by offering Georgia all of Tao-Klajerti, and Armenia Kars, the territories surrounding Mount Ararat, and have its borders stretch to Lake Van and Erzurum, plus a possible reconquest of Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh. It can also be fatal to Azerbaijan as well, since they stand to lose from Kemp expelling Turkey, but Iran would not be happy with the arrangement as well. Thus, you would have a more restraint Turkish government thinking of the consequences, especially now that Russia and Iran are mending relations a lot earlier. And in a few updates, we will see how Russia is dealing with terrorist attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda, so they are not really quiet in this regard. Plus, as hinted in previous chapters, the Russians will invade a country for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union, although it might be under the pretext of eliminating Al-Qaeda. Right now, Central Asia is pretty much a lawless region, with Al-Qaeda a de facto power broker in the region.
Russia got hit with sanctions but were they UN ones or from individual states, such as the US and EU? OTL China has managed to prevent any UN sanctions for their actions.
If their not being massacred wholesale then its not as bad as for the Armenians. However I'm not sure Turkey especially could deport such a large proportion of their population without massed deaths and the relatively small areas that the Kurds hold in Iraq, even before attacks by other powers can not support the entire Kurdish population if their all deported from neighbouring states. As such you could see a lot more deaths than in 1915 simply because there are a lot more Kurds than there were Armenians.
What your suggested in a reply elsewhere that a Turkish expulsion from NATO could prompt a Russian attack would be interesting, especially since it would make Russia and the US indirect allies, Russia seeking to gain lands for the Georgians and Armenians - although the latter would be pretty thinly populated - and the US to free up lands from Turkey and other states for the Kurdish homelands.
Steve
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Post by kyuzoaoi on Mar 25, 2021 14:35:46 GMT
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 26, 2021 2:13:41 GMT
Ahh, the slave Labour part. I’ll retcon that part soon, though it might be changed to convict labor. So, will the Fil-chi's alienation be retconned? I think some of them could become akin to the American Nisei where their drive to prove themselves would make them a reliable source of cadres, to say nothing of those ones who were orphaned by the bombing. I now retconed a part of Chapter Twenty Two from Fil-Chinese slave labor to mainly convict labor, using political prisoners instead of an ethnic minority. If you see any more errors, let me know. I might also retcon a part about Vietnam's communist government surviving, since the humiliation suffered at the hands of both China and Cambodia might be exploited by the Vietnamese government-in-exile, which is based in Orange County in California IOTL, and ITTL. OTL Russia has a permanent seat on the Security Council, and yet they were slapped with sanctions due to the OTL Ukrainian Crisis, plus the MH17 shootdown over Donetsk. I would not say that the Kurds are being massacred outright. It's more along the lines of massive deportations by those governments, and certainly even worse than what happened with the Armenians under Ottoman rule, because the Kurds also share the same religion as their oppressors. The fact that a NATO member state is also carrying out acts of ethnic cleansing is something that NATO itself would not tolerate, hence Kemp's threat of expelling Turkey from NATO. This can be fatal to the Turks, because without NATO support, the Russians might actually take advantage of Turkish vulnerability and approach both Georgia and Armenia with an offer of reversing the Treaty of Kars' Turkish gains by offering Georgia all of Tao-Klajerti, and Armenia Kars, the territories surrounding Mount Ararat, and have its borders stretch to Lake Van and Erzurum, plus a possible reconquest of Nakhichevan and Nagorno-Karabakh. It can also be fatal to Azerbaijan as well, since they stand to lose from Kemp expelling Turkey, but Iran would not be happy with the arrangement as well. Thus, you would have a more restraint Turkish government thinking of the consequences, especially now that Russia and Iran are mending relations a lot earlier. And in a few updates, we will see how Russia is dealing with terrorist attacks carried out by Al-Qaeda, so they are not really quiet in this regard. Plus, as hinted in previous chapters, the Russians will invade a country for the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union, although it might be under the pretext of eliminating Al-Qaeda. Right now, Central Asia is pretty much a lawless region, with Al-Qaeda a de facto power broker in the region.
Russia got hit with sanctions but were they UN ones or from individual states, such as the US and EU? OTL China has managed to prevent any UN sanctions for their actions.
If their not being massacred wholesale then its not as bad as for the Armenians. However I'm not sure Turkey especially could deport such a large proportion of their population without massed deaths and the relatively small areas that the Kurds hold in Iraq, even before attacks by other powers can not support the entire Kurdish population if their all deported from neighbouring states. As such you could see a lot more deaths than in 1915 simply because there are a lot more Kurds than there were Armenians.
What your suggested in a reply elsewhere that a Turkish expulsion from NATO could prompt a Russian attack would be interesting, especially since it would make Russia and the US indirect allies, Russia seeking to gain lands for the Georgians and Armenians - although the latter would be pretty thinly populated - and the US to free up lands from Turkey and other states for the Kurdish homelands.
Steve
Having looked up the whole sanctions on Russia thing, I now see that it was individual states and the EU that imposed it on Russia. In this case, we could also see individual states imposing sanctions on China for its military aggression in the West Philippine Sea, without having to go through the United Nations. The fact that there will be more Kurdish deaths that occurred through deportations ITTL than the OTL Armenian deportations will have a huge repercussion, as it will force the international community to consider the Kurdish struggle for a homeland of their own as a legitimate cause for concern, but another potential fear from an independent Kurdistan is that it might become a destabilizing factor for the rest of the Middle East, as the Assyrians(Syriacs), Druzes, and other stateless ethnic groups would now push for a homeland of their own, leading to an even worse geopolitical disaster for the Middle East as a whole. Plus, it could even affect the internal politics of Iran, which has separatist movements of its own, and thus would be pressured into either giving its minorities some form of cultural autonomy, or to federalize. Trouble is, it will be difficult to depose the Islamic clerical regime ITTL, and the same is true of OTL. Thus, Iran might look to Russia and curiously enough, Tadiar's Philippines for examples on how to give ethnic minorities within Iran some power. You can also expect to see more power being given to ethnic tribes within the Philippines, like the Ifugao, Aeta, and even the Lumads. Heck, Tadiar might even try to charm the Lumads into supporting his cause. The fear of a Turkish expulsion from NATO is why I think that the Turkish government might exercise a degree of caution, because NATO membership is the only thing that will keep Turkey's territorial integrity intact. However, Iran, Syria, and Iraq are potentially going to face the wrath of Jack Kemp in this case, so we could see a statue of Jack Kemp in Iraqi Kurdistan and have the Kurds develop a hero worship for Kemp, the same way Kosovar Albanians had developed a love affair for Bill Clinton IOTL. Another angle here is Azerbaijan, which might also face a possible wrath of the Russians if Turkey is expelled from NATO. Hence, Turkish membership in NATO also guarantees Azerbaijan's territorial integrity and geopolitical value. Moreover, since we are seeing a warmer Russo-Georgian relations instead of hostile ones, you might even see Georgia emerge as the surprise power broker in the Caucasus. Armenia's eventual return to flirting with Russia might come soon, but they might not want to lose that valuable relationship with China. Another thing too is that a larger presence of Al-Qaeda in Central Asia might force Russia and China to work together, essentially becoming indirect allies, while simultaneously becoming indirect allies with the US if it got involved in a Middle Eastern conflict. However, you will not see the US and China become indirect allies at all, except for the part where Jesse Jackson pretty much pulled a Neville Chamberlain by necessity, through hanging the Philippines out to dry. The next update will essentially cover the Chinese POV of the aftermath of the bombing of Vietnam and the Philippines. Most likely. Although they might also don custom colored versions of Pravda High's tank crew uniforms as well.
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simeon
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Post by simeon on Mar 26, 2021 2:28:42 GMT
I now retconed a part of Chapter Twenty Two from Fil-Chinese slave labor to mainly convict labor, using political prisoners instead of an ethnic minority. If you see any more errors, let me know. I might also retcon a part about Vietnam's communist government surviving, since the humiliation suffered at the hands of both China and Cambodia might be exploited by the Vietnamese government-in-exile, which is based in Orange County in California IOTL, and ITTL. How about the antagonism between the (Filipino-)Chinese and the Filipinos though? The ones that "they can't live peacefully together"? Those who are left behind must have been more willing than not to not reconstruct Binondo in its old, aesthetically Chinese glory.
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Post by TheRomanSlayer on Mar 26, 2021 3:15:48 GMT
Binondo would eventually get rebuilt, albeit it might be a real tough job to restore it to its former glory, with the whole general reconstruction going on. I would suspect that the reconstruction of Binondo might be completed during Loren Legarda's presidency. If Binondo would be rebuilt, it might be built with the help of the Taiwanese government, although that might be a tricky issue in itself.
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